that is (or should be) the foundation of a civilized, rational and above all, constructive dialogue / debate - at least in this kind of threads - but is indeed something often forgotten on forums in general.
so, agreed and shaken.
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it doesnt
we are the ones that keep the market alive by buying items and flipping them.
if you take out the traders, the industrialists that build all the ā ā ā ā will just crank up the price even more than they do so now.
I still cant believe that so few people actually see the value of station and region traders. We are the ones that actually keep the margin on stuff lower, especially on the things that go for more that 50mil, or even 200mil
did you not notice what happened in November when CCP decided it to be a brilliant idea to literally DOUBLE the standing taxes and Broker Fees on the Market???
yeah,ā¦ your right ā ā ā ā GOT MORE EXPENSIVE
its just going to take a little longer this time
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man, just solo your alts
When ā ā ā ā is more expensive, it sells for more, meaning I can pay for the taxes just as easily.
Nothing. Has. Changed.
Do you even stockpile?
wow,ā¦ just take a look at any of the faction and deadspace modules, or implantsā¦ or just higher Meta Modules
Nearly all of them increased about 7-9% in price compared to last Summer to adjust for the increase in Fees
yes shure, the market on Ammunition and Minerals has not yet changed that much because there are still people with big as Stockpilesā¦
yes,ā¦ that is exactly the problem
what are newer players supposed to do against it? they dont have the isk to support it. And now, they cant even get into the market as I did to kickstart their careerā¦ I started trading with 270 mil, and I got my first bil in profit after 3 days
without 0.01 isking it
No, I actually do not frequently Stockpile. Its relatively hard to Stockpile Items, that cost over 300 million isk, especially when one has only been playing for 16 months with an overall profit of a meager 340b (still a lot for a year, Iām aware)
But 95% of the playerbase cant just dump 10, 15, 20b on the market and stockpile something
My average buy order had a value of 324mil isk. But I took some advantages of the market, when certain Items rapidly dropped in price because someone was selling a bunch. I would hold them for a week or so and sell them at their original price, or a little higherā¦
Ok one: thats not stockpiling
Two: Nice straw men youre building.
Given even the values you are throwing around, theres more than enough new players (from my own experince) able to hurl a bill or two at a project. They PLEX from day one these days.
Look, you arent gonna agree and thats fine, but if the market increases the Market Value of a thing by 9%, then unless you are on a buying budget, who cares? It will sell at 9% higher than when you last looked too.
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New players usually are on a buying Budget
And that is the point Iām trying to make
Yes, at some point the market will have adapted in a way, that I will keep my margin.
but if I keep my margin, that is at the cost of EVERY other player, that has to buy from me, or one of the other traders
Thats just going to make the inflation worseā¦
as it did last time they changed taxes, it will start with the more expensive modules, but at some point it will get to the starter modules, ammo and T2 things
and then it will be exactly as it is now
and I dont personally see a problem with the market, other than the 0.01 isking on lower priced items, because the moment you get out of the 15m price range, the 0.01 isking stopps (in most cases)
Right, so if we assume they have limited fuynds no matter what, why would I assume they want to do big ticket market trading at the start anyway? Wont they just start trading a few millions first?
Yes but right now, these things are still pretty infinately affordable.
I guess Im just happy with either not needing to be as space rich as you, or I simply roll with the inflation as actually raising raw isk has never been easier (well, 2009 onwards, wasnt playing before then)
that is what everyone has to doā¦ but they will get far less for their isk, and they will have far fewer options to trade with.
and for how long remains to be seen, as mentioned above
seeing that you apparently play since 2009, I am just going to say that you are far more space rich than I amā¦ especially since most of my raw trading profit went back into my trader. My main has a net worth of around 35b with 20b lost on Zkillā¦
Canāt say anything about that, since Iāve been playing for just 16 Months.
As far as Iām concerned, there are a few gameplay mechanics that make the raising of isk easier, and less thoughtful in the process (looking at the ratting and minig, that is 23/7 protected by a super umbrella)
but outside of those, raising isk is not that easy, and requires a lot of thought and energy. I had the luxury of beeing between finishing school and going to Uni when I started Eve, so I had A LOT of time.
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If it costs them 8% more than it did last week, they should try to sell it for 9% more than it did last week?
Doesnt this still hold?
True true, but bear in mind I believe CCP stated we are in a Scarcity Phase? Or close to it anyway. It would hold that items should be harder to get a hold of if thats their aim, so either I concede and say that you are right, things are becoming more expensive, this is CCPs aim, and tbh its their business to look after the noobs, not mine, or Im right and its not really going to affect them as its not a particularly damaging piece of inflation, not since they can just buy as much as they need anyway.
Oh dear me no, you are much spacericher than I.
And I think its great you have taken to it so well 
Id disagree. Triglavians (Abyssal and Normal), Level 4 missions and Exploration all are either new additional funding or are either outputting more or are easier to get into than ever before.
I mean cāmon when I started a Drake was over twice the price it is now. Early-level stuff is REALLY cheap these days.
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the problem with that is, that I might be able to somewhat dictate a margin on an item that has 5 of its kind listed on sell orders for 800m each, but in the fast moving low end of the spectrum, the margin is dictated by the ones that can sell it most cheaply, and those are the industrialists, that in most cases pay about half to 2/3 the taxes we traders have to (because they only sell,ā¦ but still have to buy materials)
the statement holds in the high margin area of the market. One that I knew like the back of my hand, and mostly got kicked out of by thios change (mostly duie to the fact that I cant do new buy orders because someone decided to kill the margin trading skill, f*** that guy)
that,ā¦ ouch for you, and did I really do so well, just to become spoiled by it???
F me
Abyssal stuff was not that profitable, when I went over the math and statistics behind it, but that might have changed by now
yeah,ā¦ lvl 4s are a thing
I dont think that exploration is that profitable in the beginning, you might get a 60m run through in a Heron, but the dying to gate camps was very prominent when I tried it, the new filaments might have changed that though, at least on the way there, the way back is still hard
Iāll just take your word for it, but at some point Battleships were as rare or rarer that Titans are nowā¦, cause thats how sandboxes work
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Yeah I totally get what youre saying.
I think its because youre actually right because Im not a pure market trader. I most suppliment my incoming stocks with bargains and sell pretty much anything I can scrape together.
Im not space rich because I venture capital quite a bit and just freely spend it. I just dont like hoarding it as wealth and always have projects on the go. And I dont use guides, Im either self taught or take advice really.
I think that finding good avenues of input will probably become more vital.
And I concede that everyone will affected, but at the moment, Ive seen no reason for a highly irrational market. I do lean to feeling though from that that it IS a move by CCP to make budgets tighter. I guess we will see.
And yeah the ship market is always interesting, but while they released more tiers, it had the effect of lowering the price on earlier releases, or rather rationalising them at a steadier lower price. I guess thats one reason for Triggly ships existing on its own.
maybe,ā¦ I personally never really hoarded it, too.
most of it went back into my trader, and when I reached the point where I was actually happy with it earlier this yeat, I started to invest in pvp aspect of the game, to have some fun, since I dont actually consider the trade aspect to be fun, its a necessity to be able to buy a Battlecruiser Fleet for alliance and gloriously whelp it.
I used a few threads as input on how the market works in general, but Iād say I got into that completly on my own since I knew no one in eve to actually give me advice (and Iām suspicious in this reagardā¦ why wold someone tell me how they make their money, just so I can interrupt their thing? )
Yeah,ā¦ But if a change like this is introduced, the question is not: What happens in the first week, but rather: How will it be a year from now, and will it have changed anything?
ā I say, its going to be mostly the same, you canāt change the behavior of an open market by introducing taxes
That is their goal. They want to have less isk in the game, and I can understand that. But I would bet on it, that this is the wrong way to attack that problem.
This isk sink that the new fee is (and thats the debatable thing in this change) only takes isk from a VERY limited amount of people. After all, they said that over 95% of orders never get updated anyway, so why tax the 5% that do get updated?
especially if those 5% are the players that keep the market alive and heathy.
Because when those people leave the market, the builders can crack up their profit, and there is no one to oppose it
anyway,ā¦ good talk for now
If you respond, its nearly 2am here, Iāll get to it tomorrow
07
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Agreed. There are many better options to fight inflation. The removal of margin trading was one way. The addition of a VAT or other flat tax would be another way. None of these would distort pricing as much as the current relisting fee.
Itās also very difficult to predict how much isk the relisting fee will remove from the economy because we donāt know to what extent the fee will reduce trade.
@Ramona_McCandless and other players now seem to be agreeing that the relisting fee will distort pricing, however many players believe that they will be able to distort pricing to their advantage. Iām not sure that is the case:
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Industrialists, miners, etc. still need to buy some things and the prices of these items will be distorted. The net result will depend on what each individual player is buying and selling.
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The fee is not new player friendly. 5/5 advanced broker relations is essentially required for traders. Itās far too expensive to trade with out it.
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New players generally have less isk to spend on inflated items, fewer in game contacts to buy directly from, reduced access to alternative markets, no access to freighters or other bulk hauling. Basically fewer ways to avoid or reduce the impact of distorted prices.
Iām really disappointed you deleted margin tradings.
It was really useful for legit market tradings and if you hate scammers you just could have changed market order colors under margin trading skills.
Your lack of abilities to deal with market BOTs finally end up to spoiling one of the largest ingame activities that even can be run by newbies.
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I like the change a lot, as a new manufacturer it gives me the chnce to actually sell my stuff without adjusting my orders all the time. Most of the complaints i see, seem to come from traders who cant even be bothered to leave the station in order to turn a profit.
I dont get how experienced players always say it is a bad change for new players. New players are still learning and adapting naturally. While all the older players just seem to reluctant to change their gameplay.
As new manufacturer
- My margin hasnt decreased in a notable way. Most things i produce have 20-40% margin. Changing my orders 2-3 times doesnt have a big effect on it. The most important thing is still what to produce and were to sell it.
- The biggest influence is see on prices are the looming ore changes.
- I thought the change in margin trading skill would effect me but the change gets countered by the fact that my buy and sell orders get completet way more quickly.
Well, first i saw the inconveniences and the absurd cost of my old ways, then i saw the gaps opening up, the new opportunities standing there, with no one around to notice themā¦
Damn i love that patch, i really start enjoying myself. Thanks CCP, sorry for my previous attitude and my rude words.
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No, I agree that the level of profit reachable is now less.
A distortion would suggest you felt that the current model of far below production cost is the norm.