It might be far below production cost for you. Traders don’t put any ships into the market. We just work with what the manufacturers put in. If you can’t sell to a buy order at a profit or your sell orders fill very slowly, it means you are being out-competed by manufacturers who can produce more efficiently.
If you find that you are suddenly selling things for much more, it means that you are selling for more than the item is really worth. That’s what these kinds of taxes do. They make prices shift away from the most efficient price.
Right which means they are being bought at the higher price too or they wouldnt sell.
So there is no loss, as you recoup the higher tax by increasing the price.
The alternative is driving the price down so that its worthless to put it up in the first place.
Like I said before, I DO see how this affects speculators, but between the fact I dont usually sell at hubs, and I have very little interest in speculation beyond what I can aquire to refine, build or reprocess cheaply when my stocks are low, this is why it hasnt yet had any impact on my business directly.
I strongly disagree with you. The removal of margin trading was the worst thing they could have done. As I mentioned again and again, Traders, those that actually have to use the margin trade skill are the ones that keep the margin on items lower.
A stalemate on the market where noone is able to make new buy orders and keep them updated is unhealthy for it.
The Traders that were able to keep a hold and work with large portions of the market were taken out with that move, since very few of us are able to pour the amount of isk into the escrow that we would have to. I had 74bil in buy orders before the change, with 21b in escrow (lvl 4).
Now with the change, I cant sell my things, because updating them twice would ruin the margin (every update takes 3.5% off of it), and I definetly cant make new orders, since I’d have to put up 100% in escrow, isk that is then bound to ONE order, instead of having the possibility of using it for a number of orders
also the fact that they want to make the market more realistic, and then kill margin trading is somewhat counter intuitive
Probably not as much as they hoped it would, since - according to their own statistic - 95% of orders are never updated anyway.
I am not an indutrialist, but i do believe that most of them work acquire their materials within larger Null Blocs or over buy orders, since they use so much of it that they can always keep a healthy stockpile that way
I do not believe that buy orders will go up in price, the sell orders will, and there will always be people that sell to buy orders, even in the over 250m per item range, since that is where and how I made my money
Its Omega locked…
So no, not at all NewBro friendly
Finally someone who sees the point im trying to make, thank you
I assure you, those that build the modules will never sell them below production price…
so what we see is either a margin they can work with, usually because the big T2 builders can get their materials cheap enough.
why mess with the market.
just make a limitation that a Wallet that has Margin trading orders, cannot be lowered under the ability to buy, the top 5 most expensive orders… I kept it that way because it was the logical thing to do
Or just ignore the 3 people that fall for the margin scam each year, since scamming - bummer - is a pretty realistic thing to happen
I actually fell for it once… It was purple gun that had a Stack of 3 in perimiter, and a buy order of 3 on Jita, and I fell for it (not an Omega at that point, I had no idea on how margin trading worked). I never got rid of it, and at soe point I think I actually trashed it because I didnt want to look at it anymore (and pride… I didnt want the huge loss to show up in my sheets, so now it never existed XD)
and there is the proble.
what happens when all the manufacturers can just sell at their optimal margin?
Traders keep the margin lower and the market healthy with their activity.
yes,… because this change was implemented with a tunnel vision on the low end market of ammunition, minerals and materials, (plex and Skill injectors, though those are the 2 more expensive exceptions)
And there is the problem. We dont want stuff to just get more expensive
AND WHERE IS THAT SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD???
they try to counter the inflation, not worsen it
so you actually have no Idea what this change does to the market, and why it is a bad one, because you do not interact with it.
That is the problem with so much these day,… every uneducated person can just throw out a completely unimportant, uneducated and unnecessary opinion.
Because lets face it, when uneducated opinions prevail over facts due to their number - stuff gets torn to shreds
@Ramona_McCandless This is not meant to be an attack on you. It is a general issue I see in a magnitude of situations, no matter if here in eve, in politics or science.
When I have no experience and no facts about something… I just shut up and let those that can actually have an understanding of something do the work. A mentality that seems to have gone lost over the last years
Ok well then if thats all you wish to say, I respectfully disagree and understand there is no purpose to debating it if you dont value any non-speculative input and consider non-hubs as irrelevent.
Its my game too, as well as yours, but echo chambers do seem the norm around here.
But ok fine, non-speculators should be quiet and have no voice is what Im getting from your reply.
Wearing a suit and waving a piece of paper is accepted as expert opinion, not the opinions of people in frontline situations. THATS the problem in the world, not the workers having an opinion.
I do not consider them irrelevant. They are a part of the market.
And yes, I do think that an uneducated opinion/ speculation is useless… It’s just not helpful in any way. The reason, why I never took part in the discussions about actual Ore changes, or nerfs to super ratting, or drop rates in havens, or whatever.
I have no experience there, I can not state any facts other than the ones I heard, usually actually distorting them in the repeating, so I just shut up about it. The smart thing to do.
Talk about what you have an understanding of, listen when you have not
This is a discussion about changes meant to affect traders
you manufacture…
You sourself said, that you
That does not make you a trader (in the sense ob buying from buy orders, and selling the same Item again, the part of the game impacted by this change), but a manufacturer. A part of the game, not overly disrupted by this change. The view on the market of someone who does not work in the major hubs, and builds on small scale is simply vastly different. If they introduce a change to those small scale markets, I’d have no educated opinion, since its not my field. Now, its just the other way around
This single reply invalidated every one of your former posts, since you denoted yourself to the status of a screaming child
Well done Sir
But,…
The discussion I led was about the changes to actual market traders working in the major hubs to keep the margins low and affordable. If you want to start a different discussion, do that, but don’t segway into one where you can not have any significant experience in the subject at hand
They will affect everyone when the market simply gets more expensive. What will you do then, when you can no longer hold the margin on the few items you build in your small hub?
The relist fee is horrible. Why? Because it only leads to more micromanagement of smaller orders.
All this does is hurt people who put up large orders on the market, small orders are way less effected because they are flexible through their low value but require constant babysitting.
A market order is nothing, it is not a transfer of goods and nothing actually happens, it is basically a form of communication. Tax the actual transfer, not people saying they want to buy something without it actually happening.
Great point. That is exactly why this fee is wrong. It is taxing communication of intent to buy or sell, PLUS the sale itself. It breaks what makes markets work. It’s very poorly conceived!
I discuss it a little more at length in the broker relations thread here:
As the dude that probably hated on it the most in this thread… I don’t actually think the concept is horrible
Its just waaaayyyyy to high… I mean before it was 100 isk
make it a quarter of what it is now, and it will still buttfuck the 0.001 isking bots on minerals and ammunition, or just raise it to a set percentage of the order value… increasing it from 100 isk to maybe 0.2% would still net a big change.
that would - in my case - bring the adjustment fee from 12,000 isk to about 95mil instead of 600mil
I can live with that…
The 4 significant number change and the relist fee are 2 things that work in opposite direction for many things.
If you want prices to reach their actual market value faster the 4 digit rule makes sense because price changes become more significant. However the relist fee stops that in its tracks again because you can’t relist profitably anyway.
All this does is force people to split up large orders and drip feed them to the market one by one to stay updated with the current price.
Now that it cooled down a bit, and I had time to observe what is happening on the market…
The Change to 4 significant number is, as far as I’m observing it, actually making the micromanagement and minimal adjustments worse.
For every Item with a cost of 99.99 isk and below (meaning ammunition, materials, etc) where the 0.001 isking was at its worse - it makes no change at all, and for every item below 1000 isk, it changes basically nothing. The next thing, that can be observed is that with the more expensive modules, where someone might have come in and undercut the price by a significant amount, the changes are now, the minimal possible amount - even on 500mil + items, where undercuts could have easily taken 30-50mil off of the price.
That too,… all the while with minimum adjustments to the price…
The problem with this patch is, that the relist fee is just way to high.I dont think its that bad to introduce a relist fee,… the 100 isk that had to be paid earlier was ridiculously low, but taking 3,5% off a transitions maring (buying and selling again, or just selling) with every time an order has to be updated is to much.
many of the traders work in a part of the market, where the margins are maybe 15% or below… three order updates, and they are left with 4,5% or less
I updated all of my orders (currently about 300) once yesterday (most of them for the first time in 2-3 days)
it cost me 1,006,472,237.91 isk (I’m just going to believe Excels =SUM here)… that is more than I made over the last 2 days
The last thing is, and I believe that - at least for all traders - this goes without really speaking it aloud…
BRING BACK MARGIN TRADING