CCP Pushes for players to move markets from NPC stations to player owned stations by increasing NPC station tax… CCP then nerfs player own station markets by taxing half. This is truly discouraging and removes the incentive for a player owned market. THUMBS DOWN
4 Likes
The tick size change was a welcome change. Finally no longer undercutting people by 1 cent on 100 million ISK.
BUT you completely ruined the market experience.
You can no longer place buy orders because by the time your order is filled you have paid way more than the sell price…
Selling is also horrible now, everyone is just robbed of ISK before they can sell or buy anything.
Horible patch, please remove this change!!!
5 Likes
1st: I don’t expect that the newb hunting will be about “shortest possible time” and I’m sure many players WILL take advantage of arranged fights to get their points.
2nd: many things are against EULA (what I called ToS earlier) that still happen. One of those things is griefing newbs. Just like the salt miner that destroyed my MTU to cost me 8M, even though it probably cost him well over 10M to do so. Maybe over 20M.
3rd: I don’t mind PvP, but there is a difference between getting into a good sparring match for hours, and having someone walk up and play knock out with an unsuspecting target.
There are, as you seem to be unaware, those who choose to gank, not for a fair fight, but to destroy the wealth of others at little cost to themselves. There are entire corps that set out to target newbs, and openly say that they don’t want fights that risk them losing a ship.
You might even be in one of those corps.
1 Like
Do you really think people who do not hunt morons in highsec will suddenly get the urge to do so over 10,000 SP? Especially when they can just set up a duel with friends and get it over with in 5 minutes without taking a Security Status hit. Stop overestimating how much people give a crap about trash like you. We’re more interested in efficiently getting the SP, and that means using alts or friends (try making some).
Then report it to CCP and they’ll get banned. Griefing new players is one of the things that CCP does not tolerate.
This isn’t griefing a new player, lmao. Grow some thicker skin.
You’re playing the wrong game then.
Seeing you talk about “a good sparring match” just confirms to me that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Have you ever PvP’d in EVE Online? Where are you getting these “good sparring matches”? If you’re in an evenly matched fight, both of you did something wrong, because there is no such thing as a fair fight in EVE. Talking about it as if there were just shows how naive you are.
Good sparring matches happen in real life, which I figure most people can tell from the context.
Martial arts sparring matches happen all over. Knock out is played mostly in cities.
Let me put it to you another way, and maybe this will help you grasp these simple concepts:
You don’t put high school football teams up against NFL teams.
It isn’t because the high school players dislike football, or that they didn’t put on the uniform to play the game. It is because it is a significant mismatch.
And yes: Taking a 20M loss (or more) to cost someone else 8M, is just griefing them.
As to the thicker skin part: you’re not making sense.
The guy lost more than I did by an order of magnitude. (Net)
He was, like you: a salt miner. Only he failed, as you have, to get any tears out of me.
Thanks for playing, have a nice day.
We’re talking about EVE, so again, what are you even talking about?
Oh cool, again, a completely useless attempt to make a parallel, but still falls flat because this is a VIDEO GAME AND NOT IRL FOOTBALL. WOW!
Why don’t you report it to CCP then?
If it is griefing, they’ll get banned. Simple as that.
This was more than enough. And I can see you already typing more, lmao.
Those .01 ISK changes are probably human-made changes in most cases, not bots. As a station trader for several years, I’ve made lots of these small price changes myself and observed them as well. It’s actually unusual to see price change patterns that are both frequent and regular enough to be suspicious that they were made by bots. I would expect to see a lot more consistency in timing if they were bots.
Even with this ridiculous relist fee that CCP is ignorantly and unwisely introducing, it will still be relatively easy to undercut static orders that are never updated. All that is required is to use smaller order sizes but in greater numbers to ratchet up/down the price in increments of the smallest tick size. If a buyer or seller is willing to commit a lot of order slots to a particular item, they can still overwhelm less-committed and less-active market participants without having to pay a relist fee very often.
The above tactic does not work without negative consequences, however. Using more order slots per item will reduce the number of items a single character can trade in. This can be offset by using more trading alts or moving an NPC-corp alt into a small or solo player-corp and using a corporate account to gain more slots, but either of these approaches increases the time and logistical overhead for overseeing orders.
Regardless of the tactics that players devise to try to work around CCP’s blunder here, the market will become less efficient and less liquid. This will ultimately hurt the vast majority of EVE’s players. It may even actually help botters; they will have to adapt, but at least they can automate and spread their activities easily across multiple alts. Human traders will have to increase their time in managing a lot of small orders to try to get around all of the inefficiency that the relist fee and tick size changes introduce.
To CCP devs: It’s really sad that you have ignored all of the feedback you received over the past few weeks regarding these proposed market changes. You have once again shown that players understand this game much better than its developers in most cases. You carried out an inept trade analysis that showed no understanding of how either EVE or real markets work, came up with a sledgehammer-sized solution for a problem that needs a scalpel, and now players will pay the price for your ignorance and incompetence.
13 Likes
Well said, Sakori. I was not surprised they went through with the change. I was kind of surprised that CCP did not appear to defend, or even discuss, the changes by engaging the more thoughtful, academic respondents.
People from all walks of life play Eve Online, including college professors, politicians and scientists. I could tell they had a keen understanding of what they were talking about, and in order for the playerbase to respect these changes and be good sports about it, they need to trust or at least understand CCP’s choices. Unfortunately, besides that one undercooked blog post, CCP gave us no such opportunity.
It makes me think they are being disingenuous. Maybe the bots are a problem we all can understand. But their solution punishes people and tips more power to botters because like you said, the extra steps and calculations involved can be automated better by bots running alts than normal human beings playing the game honestly. I think they like bots because the bots are operating paid accounts but - unlike folks like you and me - the bots don’t take to the forums to complain. Perhaps one day all of New Eden will run the way Elite: Dangerous runs. The real people can simply walk away, while the universe simulates itself without us, just using the bots.
8 Likes
Are you serious CCP?
As a pure industrialist and trader (unfortunately I don’t have time for anything else), that’s my death sentence.
Prices that can only be changed in millions of steps for expensive ships?
Price changes that sometimes cost millions per change ??? (Freighters for example)
Or every time “only” 500k for a hand full t2-rockets …
So do I have to wait until someone buys the 5.000.000 cheaper rockets before mine may be considered? And if I also change their price a few times, I’m already in the red with the already low profit ???
OK. I’ve been here for tens of years (13 !!! with breaks, of course) - have made a lot of changes - not all great - but positive on average.
But now it is really over. I let my 200 trade offers expire (just don’t touch them - that costs me a fortune) or sell everything by contract.
And then I put my account on hold and check every few weeks whether something is going on here.
Thanks CCP …
(that was my first and probably the last post in this forum)
10 Likes
Exactly. I dare say, the EVE community no doubt contains a few economists / traders / brokers / portfolio managers who work with markets for a living. So many players are now independently saying the same thing. The relisting fee changes are pure lunacy and will make the market experience terrible and expensive for most players. CCP ought to address this.
2 Likes
one word ‘profiles’
1 Like
They had a great market for years and they knew it. The model was heralded as a useful example by people outside the CCP and EVE players. The market was one of the best-functioning aspects of the whole game, with a lot of freedom to trade.
They knew it all. It’s not like this has been a feature that was crippling game play. Which makes me think this was not done to improve the game at all. No-one can be that ignorant, and not CCP either, although they look like it. This was done for reasons that are not obvious to us. Either it was done to provide an advantage for certain players, or to disadvantage others. Or it’s the case of new leadership/developers who don’t have experience with the game, and just want to ‘‘experiment’’ or come up with ‘‘new ideas’’ to look like they’re doing something useful or different. Or CCP just plain does not want to develop this game anymore, and wants to burn it to the ground to get rid of it.
That’s how absurd this change is.
All of those people who complained about 0.01-ISK-ing and botting, are people who have never done any serious trading in the game. They just want to set an order and forget about it. But that’s not how the market system should work. It’s not a passive feature, it should be an active game play. Which it was, and now it’s gone.
I 0.01-ISKed on a daily basis. The only time I ever thought 0.01-ISK-ing was bad, was back when I started in the game and did not understand the market. Which is exactly how it is now. Those who don’t understand the market or don’t want to deal with trading are the only ones complaining about 0.01-ISK-ing. But they’re fooling themselves if they think they now have an advantage in the new system.
11 Likes
This is one of the worst patches ever. The Features “Market rounding” and "Market Taxes§ will destroy the market even for low pricing items. If this will not re-ammended i will quit eve. With all the other nerfs already done an will come up as they are already announced it seems that CCP lost the understanding of its own game and how it survived all the years with a great community of players. In all the years im playing this game I have never responded to a patch or a nerf, but enough is enough !
6 Likes
The rounding up is only half the catastrophe. The exurbitant fees for a market change completely overflow the barrel.
Example:
85k t2 cruise missile cost me 35 million to produce. In sales they bring in 46 million. Less taxes, there is a profit of 8.3 million
A price change now costs me a whopping 350,000 ISK!
Say: after a little over 20 changes (which I did on the weekend) I’m on 0 profit. The 10 ISK steps can be easily neglected.
These costs do not even appear to be calculable - you would have to rummage through the logs.
Even if I only made changes once a day (absolute minimum for a trader), I can safely scrap the parts after 10 days because my profit is zero.
Hey! This is really fun CCP!
4 Likes
I am currently deleting all my buy orders so as not to remain on the “sales” trap. From now on there is only a remaining sale - if necessary also by contract - one of the popular “hangar sales” - only this time not as scam but out of desperation.
2 Likes
Thanks, it is working so far with tab.
Still waiting on an answer CCP to the simple question of whether you included immediate duration market orders in the data set used to come up with the stupid relist fee. Instead, we get, heh some people update market orders a lot, this relist fee will surely bankrupt them. No it won’t bankrupt them CCP, the actual players will go bankrupt.
2 Likes
I don’t want penny wars, i was an engaging barter system. And this change renders the market obsolete for most people that were engaging with it. And drastically slows down the market as an income source, especially for people that have to work, have kids and don’t have all day to sit around and use more intensive ISK faucets. This isn’t about being butthurt, it’s about removing playability for individuals more constrained on availible time.
Okay, so explain to me exactly why the next skilling spree is going to turn into “farm the noobs”? Won’t many people gravitate towards the quicker, easier, and cheaper way of getting their SP award -especially, when they don’t have to worry about breaking the EULA and getting a ban hammer? But, I guess we’ll find out for sure tomorrow.
And now for some random stuff.
Killing MTU’s is not necessarily griefing. They’ll drop loot, which people can then scoop. Moreover, you can sometimes bait players into aggressing HS, or, in NS, encourage them to spend more time on grid trying to scoop their MTU’s when hunters are around. So, as long as players aren’t doing it just to upset the target, it’s not considered griefing by CCP. The sole exception to this is when it’s done to newbros in and around rookie systems.
Second, killing an MTU gives a suspect flag.
Third, I’m fully aware that most players won’t fight fair. However, I don’t consider this a bad thing. For one, adversity increases the satisfaction I get from completing my goals, and two, the constant threat of danger keeps PvE at least a little bit interesting, and it sometimes turns into good fun. I mean, I don’t particularly like loosing ships, but I do enjoy it when I can slip away, save a friend, and even kill a would be attacker. So, I consider it the nature of the game being played, and that learning how to deal with those who would fight unfair is part of getting good at the game.
Edited for grammar
1 Like
Yes there is no diffenrece between the taxes on a NPC and a player owned Station now 