And this is a forced, false, BS interpretation of what was said:
So THIS is based off that forced, false, BS interpretation:
Of course a lot of this hinges on what each person considers a carebear to be, and defintions vary as widely as ugly Christmas sweaters.
But there is far more to the market than just ships and modules. There are also rigs, materials, fuels, subsystems, missiles, ammo, BPOs, structures and other things. Plus there are the established structures where things are processed and built.
I think the markets would be positively crippled if not for industrials of all stripes. Remove one stripe and its over. So respect them all.
This is what is implied via the statement Mei Chu-Ann made: PvP-enjoying players are not also industrialists and therefore without those classified as ‘carebears’, the PvP-enjoying players will suffer because nobody will be mining (gun or asteroid) or building the stuff they need.
That entire argument relies on the fallacious assumption that PvP-enjoying players are only capable of or interested in PvP activity and cannot possibly be engaged in any PvE activities themselves, or have corp/alliance members who enjoy PvE activities without being ‘carebears’.
This EVE-specific iteration of the False Dichotomy fallacy is identified by Xuxe Xu as the ‘who will build your ships for you thing’, which is not a misrepresentation of Mei Chu-Ann’s statement. Just because Mei Chu-Ann did not mention modules or ships specifically when referring to the market does not change what was intended by the argument, nor invalidate the name being used here for the fallacy.
Your are assuming WAAAAAAAY too much either because you cannot comprehend concepts between two extremes, or because it pleases you to grossly misrepresent someone for the sake of applying grief.
The statement “supply markets” entails a whole hell of a lot, and cannot be fairly reduced to a simple “build ships”.
A couple weeks ago I was supplying ice to the market at crazy prices. It sold at crazy prices because supplying yourself with every single little thing you need is even more crazy than my prices.
Moreover note that Mei Chu-ANN is a pvper herself talking about her own market needs even as she as says she herself also supplies the market.
You are insisting on misrepresenting her statement for one or both of the pathetic reasons I stated.
No. ‘Without carebears, who is going to supply the market’ has one meaning: the poster believes that carebears are required for market function. That establishes a False Dichotomy where there are only two kinds if players: Carebears Supplying the Market, and Everyone Else Not Supplying the Market. There are not - because carebears are a tiny portion of the industrialist playerbase, and many of the people who dislike carebears are industrialists themselves.
Mei Chu-ANN promptly contradicted herself by acknowledging that she also supplies the market - so she shouldn’t have made the fallacious argument in the first place.
It MIGHT imply that except the poster made it clear that it DIDN’T in the same post., as I already explained…she is a PVPing market supplier herself. That leaves the most extreme implication that it means carebears are MORE vital to supplying the market. However there is also the more neutral implication that both carebears and PVPers are equally vital and if carebears vanish, the market is doomed.
If PvPers have not left, how would carebears leaving doom the market?
The only way for carebears leaving to spell doom is for carebears to be responsible for the majority of market activity - which is demonstrably false. Carebears are not all, or even most, industrial players - they are a vocal minority.
You don’t say?
Obviously you are not familiar with what has long become the EvE meme of “who will build your ships for you” from massive overuse of that idea…to represent exactly what you are saying…which has been regurgitated over and over…for many years…congrats I guess…
No. I copped on to that without direct knowledge of it. But its still a poorly chosen description/interpretation that might be representative of some people’s arguments, but not the poster in question. Which is why I call it a forced, false, BS interpretation. And we can see that those who ran with what you said are further misrepresenting what Mei Chu-Ann said. And that indicates to me that perhaps the lot of you just like to argue to hear your own voices and that is why you come up with and repeat descriptions/titles that grossly over-simplify larger and more complicated concepts.
It looks to me like the market is in pretty poor shape as it is. CCP can take artificial measures to prop it up, but, I think if all remains the same losing a significant amount of market suppliers is going screw it all up big time. I don’t think it needs to be a majority. Further, its not the majority of players that would matter, but the majority of market supply provided. And further to that, niche supplies are also extremely important.
Call it what you want. I think you guys are over-simplying so you can make excuses to be contrarian maybe. But of course it might be limited capacity as well. Not ruling much out here.
Define ‘market is in pretty poor shape’, please - by what metric, and in relation to what time period?
The premise ‘losing a significant amount of market suppliers is going screw it all up big time’ is not related to losing carebears. That’s the whole problem with the false dichotomy argument that keeps being made when players trot out the ‘who will do X if carebears leave?’ argument. Carebears are a tiny portion of the playerbase responsible for a tiny portion of the market and industry.
The same argument is used by carebears against gankers: If you (gankers) drive us (carebears) out if the game, who will (mine the ore you need/make the ships you need/etc)?
It’s a fallacious argument relying on the carebear’s characterization of PvP-interested players as pure consumers who add nothing to the game.
Not all industrialists have this mentality. Carebears are a very specific group of players in any PvE-centric gameplay style who object to any game change that decreases their income potential, regardless of impact on overall game health or enjoyability for others. In short: carebears are players who are focused only on what benefits them, and say ‘screw you’ to the entire rest of the playerbase constantly.
IDEK who I am anymore.