Eating sour grapes, and railing aganst the injustice of it all. Poor martyr you.
You do know that you operate under the same rules as we do, so stop complaining and frigging do something about it, or are you going to just nail yourself to that cross and complain about how CCP/Goons made it so you can’t scratch your nose now?
Hey CCP,
For over a year now one region has been mining/farming more than anybody else in the game, perhaps twice. This is thanks to the hisec level safety in their space created with the tools you have been providing/catering to them (not particularly to Goons, but to the group who owns the largest supercapital force which happens to be Goons). The more you keep providing them these tools, the more people who would otherwise have nothing to do with this group will merely flock to this region for the risk free farm of ISK/minerals. This kills content in several major and countless minor ways, and messes up the game economy for everyone else.
If these MER’s are not disturbing to you hinting at that your game might be unbalanced, I don’t know what else can be. We are already at an economically irreversible point, but I don’t know what another year of continuation of this imbalance can do to your game. The worst part is that the system you have created benefits people who prioritize monetizing Eve (not necessarily in an illegal way), like Mittens, over the quality of Eve content that their own group is receiving.
The learned helplessness in this post is quite striking. “Help us, CCP, for we cannot be arsed to log in and do it ourselves.”
Hello, goon here so feel free to hate me, but I do have a question. What’s your alternative? Back in the good old days there were other dominant blobs of assholes ruining the game for everyone. They may have been in T2 fit battleships because that was the best there was, but the outcome was similar. You are asking for a game-rule limit on what is fundamentally a social problem.
Goons currently have the greatest social cohesion and the best out-of-game setup for organizing and motivating players. Therefore they are, at least in the southwest, dominant. The fact that poking your nose into space defended by a densely packed, heavily armed, well organized, and rapidly reacting group usually gets you dead does not mean the game is broken. It means that collectively Goons are good at shooting space mans who come to Delve.
I’d also like to point out that during the casino war we got stomped into paste, lost all our space, lost much of the coalition, and were forced to become refugees. This also happened when we lost Delve the first time in 2010; I’ve been here for all this stuff. And yet, somehow, here we are fat and happy and homicidal again…
So what makes you think that if CCP took away the tools they’ve been “providing to cater to us” we wouldn’t just keep on rocking with whatever was left? Unless you are asking CCP to randomly delete the hangar contents of players in the dominant null blocs to punish them for success I don’t see a rules change that would actually allow poorly organized groups to compete with better run ones.
I have to admit that I’m impressed. The Goons have month after month, dominated the industrial landscape of Eve. Even when they deployed and their Roquals were dying like flys, they still out mined every region. How do you guys do it? I mean is it like a riff of Robert A. Heinlein Starship Troopers, “everybody mines, nobody quits”?
Actually it’s a question of population density. We pack a lot more dudes into our space than anyone else, very much on purpose. More miners and carrier ratters means somebody doing capital PvE can expect a rapid and usually overwhelming capital response to bail their dumb self out. So yeah, spod for the spod god!
Also, now that I get into the details of the report, while Delve is mining far more than anywhere else it’s also #4 for the most destruction list. The three regions ahead of it are The Forge (Jita) and two high intensity war zones. So while we are mining like crazy we are hardly doing it in perfect safety.
That‘s the key word. Overpopulation in the real world makes the region starving and drive people out to new ground and building new competing entities.
We got travel restrictions in EvE helping with the second point, but without a penalty to population density it has just the opposite effect. So guess what will solve the “problem”? Resource limitations, and make them regenerate slower the faster you extract them.
I do not complain how things are handed to CONDI, I remark critically that more and more people just join CONDI to right away have the things that CONDI created without own hard work. Please learn the difference.
I also do not want things handed and given to me. I work hard to achieve what I want to achieve, and I feel quite happy with the size of my group because we can have fights with neighbors and other entities without blobbing them to death and we don’t ruin our own fun.
You misunderstand me. I mean a hard, unchangeable, un-undermindable limit. No standings beyond this limit, no external organization beyond this limit. 
You did not lose anything of your coalition. In contrast, you moved most of your coalition into CONDI over time. FCON? You dumpstered them and now the biggest corps are in CONDI. CO2? Mutual clusterscrewup and now their biggest corps are in CONDI and GOTG. EXE? Well, they were smaller than some of your corps anyways, but still most are in CONDI. Same picture for BASTN, TNT and LAWN. CFC did not lose anything during WWB, your narrative about it is disingenuous and dishonest.
EVE is just like real life. You have ‘successful people’ (meaning the people who are willing to use the tools at their disposal to achieve things) and then you have the ‘not-successful people’ who spend all their time hating the successful people while believing that “the game is rigged for them”, even though those people could be doing the exact same things to succeed, but won’t for some reason.
There is no magic to Goons, like there is no magic to successful people in real life. They just do the realistic thing: Come in to environment, learn the rules of the environment, use those rules to best effect to gain an advantage, rinse and repeat.
The unsuccessful people, on the other hand, tend to be the idealistic “things should work this way and this way only” types. And when things don’t work the way they ‘should’, these people have no back up plan. They freeze, they feel despair. They get angry, and start complaining, because for some reason that I will never understand, complaining is all they are capable of.
In EVE, these two groups are are represented by null sec (the people so successful they can take a space without rules and turn it into a place that is so influential that everything that happens there has a huge affect on the rest of the game) and high sec (the people who outnumber null sec 10 to one but who are so unable to organize or cooperate for more than the 15 seconds it would take to elect ONE MEMBER to the CSM).
I’m obviously a null sec player. and every time I read this whining by high sec partisans I think the same thing: It’s not our fault that you can’t figure the game out even though you outnumber us. It’s not our fault that we can be bothered to click on a link and vote for CSM members while people like you can’t mange this. It’s not our fault that you spend all your time bickering with each other and complaining about us while we (meaning null, I’d neveer be a goon lol) spend our time cooperating with each other for the greater good of our groups.
TL;DR, it’s not our fault that you suck. It’s yours (or your parents, or your society’s). Stop sucking and one day you might be able to compete with us.
So the problem exactly here is that how is it allowed by Eve mechanics that the nullsec capital PvE in Eve can be done within an environment with hisec level risk. That’s not a social problem. Let me tell you why.
In the beginning of Rorqual changes, some alliances (inpanic, solar fleet etc.) in Cobalt Edge and Outer Passage were farming as much as Delve (see the very early MER’s). Then they began substantially losing their Rorquals to groups to several groups. This in turn balanced their mining numbers. it’s not like they are completely barred from mining, but they can’t mine anomalous numbers in a risk-free situation. They earn some ISK, lose some ships, much like how nullsec is supposed to be. A place with high reward BUT ALSO high risk, as opposed to the no-risk situation you have in Delve right now. They couldn’t keep Delve-level mining up, because their capital umbrella was not large enough to deter all groups hunting them. And that was the mere difference between them and Goons. In turn, lots of people who were mining there now live in Delve.
You see, the problem is not the fact that people want to be in a bigger, more organized alliance. The problem is in Eve’s design on failing to impose proper limits to the defensive power and capabilities of the largest, most organized groups of Eve in sov null space. Instead, CCP provides the very mechanics which makes the hisec level safety possible in Delve. And they are not social mechanics. So let’s take a look at your next question. What are the non-social, purely game mechanics CCP has been catering to the largest supercap force in this game?
People who know me know the alternatives I have been offering for over a year now, so that’s why I initially didn’t go in there. And each of my posts will attract a curious Goon like you who’d like to hear more. It’s a bit tiring to repeat these things, but here is a summary.
As a sidenote, I am aware that what I am saying is against the spirit of Fozziesov. Fozziesov particularly designed sov null so that major alliances didn’t need to occupy huge spaces, and were self sufficient in a small area. This was supposed to make room for the smaller alliances, thus cause more diversity and a colorful space full of people trying to figure out their destiny. But they didn’t address the competitive advantage large entities have over small entities, due to the capabilities brought by the use of their huge capital umbrellas. So if you are a smalltime group of people who just want to mine in Rorquals, you will not carve up your space. You will merely join Goons. In this way, Fozziesov failed in addressing one of its goals. There is now less diversity in nullsec.
Make it so that Rorquals are not this super upward scaling activity in terms of account/isk/hr. For example, introduce fighter mechanics to Rorquals so they require non-afk attention to keep mining at their speed. A single person being able to multibox mine in 50 Rorquals is a game breaking anomaly in this game. Thus, the way how you can multibox 50 Rorquals and achieve immense mineral/hr numbers is a mechanic that CCP has been catering.
Make it so there are workarounds/counters to the capital umbrella. Such as a mobile cyno inhibition rework. The current system favors defending side too much. You are only a special kind of stupid if you manage to get yourself cyno inhibbed, and even then you can survive until friendly capitals can warp from a cyno lit somewhere else in the system. Thus, given that you have the largest capital umbrella in the game (so you can use it fearlessly), the way you can just carry a cyno, light it, and be practically risk-free in your PvE capital farming is a mechanic which CCP has been catering.
So here is why the possibility of everyone else uniting against Goons and evicting them once every 5 years is not sufficient. This game bases itself around an ecosystem, in which PvE activity fosters PvP content. So the higher reward you seek, the riskier places you go, and the risk here is often in the form of actual people killing your ship. But what’s the situation for a Goon super or Rorqual? If someone attacks your PvE capital, you light your cyno, summon your capital umbrella, and guarantee living. If someone attacks your PvE capital in a force which will be able to contest your capital umbrella, then you will see it coming from miles away (because it will require the hostile party to move capitals) and then merely dock. If someone gathers enough force to actually evict you, then you will deny fights, move to lowsec, wait it out, and move in another region. People can’t chase you forever. You see, in nowhere this equation there is the possibility of losing your PvE capital. This is what I mean by game breaking denial of content. And the more PvE people from across Eve join your ranks, the more the denial of content becomes game breaking. Those who lived in other regions and became healthy parts of Eve ecosystem are now out of reach.
A generic point here Goons most often make is that they lose PvE capitals in Eve. But that’s not a point which refutes anything I am saying. Because compared to how much they are farming, they are losing a laughable amount. Denial of content prevails.
So let’s take your classic Goon pride (which I always argued to be kinda baseless btw but let’s not go in there) out of the equation. If the above demands are met, I am not saying Goons won’t be as good an alliance as they think they are today. So you can keep your pride and I am not interested in that discussion.
But by “rocking” if you mean being able to mine 14t/month in a single region, then that’s not gonna happen. Because those people who multibox 50 Rorquals will not be able to keep doing so. Which is only fair because there is not one other active ISKmaking activity in this game that scales that much upward with every new account you have.
And then by “rocking” if you mean denying content to everyone due to the hisec level safety they currently have, then that’s not gonna happen because people will begin to kill more Goon capitals due to cyno inhibition reworks etc. This in turn will remove the main point of living in Delve for some. The hisec level safety.
And then by “rocking” if you mean keeping on doing the negative impact they do on the game economy (on mineral prices, PLEX prices, ISK inflation) then that’s not gonna happen because farm numbers will go back to normal amounts much like how it happened in Cobalt Edge and Outer Passage.
But don’t get me wrong. With all of the above happening, and unfair mechanics removed, I have no further problem whatsoever with Goons. So they can keep “rocking” and being the best alliance they think they are. As long as they won’t be relying on game breaking mechanics anymore that’s fine by me.
There is a bit of irony here regarding the people complaining about null sec isk generation.
For years many of us talked about how it was in some ways too easy to make isk in high sec. Mainly incursions but also SOE missions and lately , burner mission blitzing that can earn up to 200 mil per hour in LP with sub capital ships.
The oddest responses to our comments was that CCP should just BUFF NULL instead of touching high sec income…
https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=150359
http://eve-search.com/thread/380155-1/page/all#11
https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6204805#post6204805
Well, CCP buffed null in the form of the fighter squadron system, the ESS deployables and Excavator drones…
…Now High sec people are complaining about too much income from null. Well, you all shoulda been careful what you wished for.
Do you mind f.ing off from my posts if you don’t have anything constructive to contribute? No need to agree with me, but at least a counter argument or example rather than a turdpost? This is not reddit.
You can’t fault the Imperium for successfully forming large cohesive empire. It’s kinda the main idea of the game - organizing and cooperative for efficiencies and power, and to be stronger than your enemies. Oh, Rorquals and capital ratting are almost certainly unbalanced to a degree and will have effects negative on the greater economy, but taking and efficiently managing and exploiting a region - and selling this nation as the place to be to others to swell your numbers (and thus power) - should be lauded. They “got good” and are thriving under the current rules.
There are problems with the current rules. Nullsec could use less safety (so that opportunists had more tools to steal some of that Imperium wealth and otherwise mess with internal resource generation of nullsec groups) and actual conflict drivers so wars and big battles might actually occur for reasons other than someone’s girlfriend being insulted, a mis-click, or between bored groups looking for content. Resources should deplete, move or otherwise induce groups to take the initiative and actually commit to a real war where they might overextend themselves and become vulnerable, or fracture from within under pressure, and just not sit in one system/constellation/region farming and fortifying it indefinitely. Something to get the groups interacting and create the possibility for conflict.
I don’t see that happening. CCP has had years to add conflict drivers and instead has taken the conservative approach and lately, even removed conflict drivers in an attempt to foster more cooperation and make a more “social” Eve. Certain development teams so much wanted their revamp of sov to be a success they massively buffed nullsec incomes sources and reduced limits on player density to bribe players to move there. They did, but that still wasn’t enough to get them to use the sov mechanic very much, and this was made worse by another dev team who for the same reason - to ensure uptake of their new feature by the players - released structures that were so safe and overtuned in favour of the defender, they added another blanket of stagnation upon the game.
Perhaps in a few years some new space will be opened with the new stargates and the gold rush effect will shake things up and make groups really have/want to fight, but for now we in another period of peace and prosperity. That’s fine as part of the long-term narrative of New Eden, at least for a while, but don’t expect player numbers to climb very much until CCP actually does something major to shake up the snow globe (and not just heap more safety and wealth on the players as bribes to use new features) and capture the imagination of players, and to remind everyone that the game can be more than a space farming simulator or elaborate instant messaging client to chat with your friends.
Regardless, thanks to CCP Quant for the numbers and the insight into what is going on in our shared universe. The new visualizations are top drawer and should be part of the report going forward.
While I agree with the post in general, I think this point would make groups like CONDI just even more powerful. It is correct that Null sec in particular needs conflict. However, with the changing mindset of an ever growing portion of the playerbase towards demanding and expecting more stability and safety of big groups instead of trying something of their own, I think this would backfire and just push even more people in already established, excessively huge groups, which in turn would stifle conflict again, which in turn demands for more conflict drivers, which in turn pushes more people in big groups. Is it just me that sees a viscous circle?
No, it’s probably too late in the cycle to change something meaningful. If you stop wealth accumulation, the existing wealth is not touched but other not that rich groups will even more struggle to catch up. The shakes must be real, like something which makes (super) capitals useless for a while.
Please update Europe map with eastern part or just delete it, that’s very ignorant and pathetic.
Reread the context for that image, then come back and delete your post, because you just embarrassed yourself without apparently realizing it. Not only did you fail to recognize the source of that image (importantly who didn’t create it) but why it was included in the blog in the first place. Doesn’t speak highly to your intelligence levels.
This right here is why we’re basically never afraid of any of you. Your incessant need for fights makes you unable to actually do the work if you aren’t getting your ickle dopamine hits from molasses submarine jousting. Have you considered that the issue is in yourselves? It’s such an easy psychological weakness to exploit.
This guy gets it.