Nerf Ganking Megathread

Communications Center Crime & Punishment
2703

Actually you misunderstand, because wasn’t the CODE created as cover for players to shoot miners based on a role playing pretence supplied by a GM to get around their griefing policy. In fact I don’t think it was even necessary because killing miners is actually resource wars and as far as I am concerned legitimate game play.

He laid out that blowing up a obvious new player with zero cargo was likely griefing and was cruel and had no game reason for it. Your own example had ore and minerals in your hold.

You should not panic, CCP has no intention of ending hisec ganking, but those that go after new players might find it a little bit problematic if you err towards blowing them up because they are new and you want to teach them the harsh nature of Eve. If you do, make sure to explain what they did wrong and even give them ISK and goodies CCP will pat you on the back.

Ganking is safe.

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2704

Non-griefing reasons why newbros sometimes find themselves on the wrong end of a blaster

  • Learning how to gank
  • Practicing ganking on gates
  • Practicing Multiboxing
  • For extortion
  • Made a mistake and hit the wrong target
  • Scanning targets requires an alt, can spook them, takes time, and can be difficult
  • Explorers and T1 industrials are like loot boxes with a very low cost to open
  • Opening up everyone’s character sheet is tedious and time consuming
  • Member of a targeted group
  • Killing a PvE Competitor
  • Killing a Ninja Looter
  • Creating a killboard history for spies
  • They’re not actually newbros, but confirmed alts
  • No better targets
  • Recruiting by Shooting

I find the idea that CCP just wants to address newbro griefing laughable. They have previously said it wasn’t a problem… and now all of a sudden Ratatti is extremely worried about it, and making up ridiculous arguments like newbros don’t know why the were ganked, don’t know how to bounce back, and that it’s always griefing?

Yeah… I think there’s reason to be worried alright. They last time they made a presentation like that, we got the war deck changes. At least then, however, they actually threw hard stats to thow at us. This time, they’re just pulling ■■■■ out of their ass.

2705

Reportedly.

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2706

Of course there are many reasons why new players can get ganked, but I noted along with several others that certain people appeared to be going after them before they had a chance to understand what Eve was, and in that they are damaging the new player base. I think that CCP did that to say watch it guys, desist. As long as those people desist then no issue.

In terms of the war dec changes, the issue was real in that people were not logging in during the many blanket wars and then decided to give up on subs. The question on how to balance that is still there. I have said repeatedly that the issue is with blanket war decs looking for people passing along pipes or going in and out of trade hubs and that is the issue.

A cold and heartless one for war deccers is if there is no kill within two days the war lapses immediately and that entity cannot have a war declared on it for two months by anyone. Of course it is a ridiculous suggestion and would be gamed in the normal Eve way, but would this have been any worse than the current system? (But watch certain people explode at this, LOL.)

As I say the key aspect to this is in making war decs and ganking fun and engaging for all sides by good balance and decent mechanics. And that is what one should aim for.

2707

I agree with that on the face of it. The problem is that many people say stuff like that, while asking for changes that don’t reflect it. In fact, we know that there are people that want to nuke ganking and/or get rid of non-consensual PvP, because there are people who openly admit it (i.e. permanent green safeties and PvE only servers). And it is absolutely amazing how many people say that they value ganking and that it has a place in Eve… and then follow it up with suggestions that would essentially nuke the play style.

Do some people honestly believe that their suggestions will achieve that end? Sure, I think they just don’t understand the consequences of what they’re asking for (especially since there is a lot of misconceptions floating around). However, I think some people know full well what they’re asking for, they’re just trying to mask their true intentions.

Newbro griefing isn’t a problem. Not only has CCP said so before, but I have personally known gankers to that offered advice or isk to newbros after they have killed them, and gotten ■■■■ from other gankers for killing newbros (not to mention all the other reasons why newbros might get killed that have nothing to do with griefing). Are there people intentionally targeting newbros for the lulz? I have no doubt. Is it a widespread problem in need of addressing? No.

It’s just a pretext.

2708

Hello,

You are right to raise this question as formulated.

From my 19 years of disjointed experience (due to necessary breaks for personal and professional reasons), I don’t think ganking is THE problem; it’s just part of a whole that is making some new players more impatient.

This is also very striking, and all the more so when you take the time to carefully read all the comments on this forum, especially those from players who say they are totally disgusted by EvE Online.

Q. Except that New Eden has absolutely nothing to do with it, because once again it is factors completely outside the persistent universe that are spoiling the atmosphere within the player community, leading to these successive waves of defections ; I’m going to come back to it since it seems once again necessary to deal with it in the face of the waves of waffle that are rampant on this forum…

Ganking is therefore the tree that hides the forest.

At the same time, what is also very striking is therefore the bad faith shown very regularly by all the both useless and harmful lollipops on this forum, which ultimately do the exact opposite of what they should do as influencers; these lollipops are literally totally incompetent, and the duo CCP + Pearl Abyss would benefit from muzzling them.

Q. They will recognize each other…

So what are these external factors?

They are 4 in number, and I am going to summarize them for the umpteenth time below; in this order :

1- the first ancestral error of CCP first of all, which believed that it could allow itself to interact on the scarcity of resources in New Eden; this error does not date from yesterday, since it is necessary to begin by pointing the finger at the DownTime itself dating from 2003, which reinitializes daily as if by magic, the stock of resources of the belts; how such an error in the definition of a so-called persistent universe could have been implemented and maintained all this time, I don’t know;

2- the second CCP error which stems from the first, directly affects the natural balance of the game itself, since by playing constantly, update after update, on all the parameters and the rules game to try to counterbalance what cannot be counterbalanced, CCP got the opposite of what was expected; moreover, this is again absolute nonsense in a so-called persistent universe, since it permanently harms the individual initiatives of the players who, sooner or later, are inevitably fed up with it and express it; again, over 17 million characters have been created since 2003; where have all the players who created them gone;

Q. These errors necessarily had a significant impact on CCP’s economic development plan at the time which, rather than correcting them, clumsily added a layer, then two, then three, etc. ; I’m coming ;

3- I named among other things: a) PLEXs, b) ALPHA vs. OMEGA, c) injectors; no, but quite frankly, what did our brave little Vikings expect in return? because of the indisputable worthy status of MMO-RPG-RTS (2003-2009), EvE Online was inevitably drawn into this infernal spiral of pay to win, thus abandoning a whole category of players who nevertheless made the glory of CCP, for the sole benefit players that I now prefer to call precocious ejaculators; all this constitutes the third fundamental error of CCP according to me;

4- CCP’s fourth error, which rather than wondering about the exact reasons for so many defections (does not become a systemician who wants to), prefers to cherish the immediacy so dear to the new category of EvE Online players, wanting right away, while being ready to put your hand in your wallet to get there without ever flinching, including for simple cosmetics as content, thus completing after 19 years of existence, the mutation of an entire community ; personally, I have, by force of circumstance, become an old fossil in the midst of all this…

Q. Inevitably, when among the new players, some come to discover the game in the hope of confronting a real MMO-RPG-RTS, they are very quickly disappointed because of the presence all around them of precocious ejaculators always ready to do battle, gate after gate, this now majority behavior, inevitably undermining the state of mind sought by a whole category of players today neglected…

So is all of this irreversible? NOPE ! In no case, and on this last point, I refer you once again to the experience conducted since 2019 by Blizzard when they made the wise decision to relaunch World of Warcraft, World of Warcraft Classic in parallel, i.e. two styles of game for two categories of players!

Like what…

Ully Loom

2709

I was aware of people targeting newbros because they wanted to get back at CCP, so I see it in that context. It was a very targeted tap on the knuckles in my opinion. I do not think that CCP will do something that will end ganking, but I think they will make it more balanced, and the change to mining barges and exhumers was that, but don’t forget that in terms of them fitting choices still matter in terms of yield and tank. CCP got that right and they reduced the tank of the Skiff and Procurer too. I think that needing more than one Catalyst at the base level is fine, as in 0.5 and not bothering about tank.

What I am going to look at here is the morale and the desire of gankers, without any doubt the real issue for freighter ganking activity by gankers is the lack of big pay day whales floating about and being silly more than anything else.

I think CCP is fine with hisec piracy.

2710

It seems to me that the newbro griefing rules now force every ganker to fit a cargo scanner…so as to avoid ganking empty ships. This will have an effect on the sort of opportunistic ganking that I ( or indeed anyone else ) may decide to do. The new rules basically mean I have to be specifically going out with the intention of ganking.

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2711

So you got ganked once in total, god knows when, and you are still butthurt from it?

2712

When I started back in 20016 wasn’t there full month of invulnerability to pvp? I am not sure about it right now, but I remember something like that.

If it was there they removed it and for a good reason as it is obvious it was used to exploit the risk of getting ganked to haul super expensive items.

I agree wth you there. There doesn’t need to be any technical restriction or mechanics to solve this. ISDs should solve this, ask the ganker why it have happened and perhaps give him warning if it was really just about griefing new players.

2713

Okay. I’m going to have to respond to this later… I did however wanted to point out that I absolutely love this term. I hope it becomes a thing.

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2714

What people call ‘pay to win’ was inevitable and essential…and I am glad CCP grasped that.

The reality is that Eve has always been ‘paid’ for. If you are mining for 10 hours a day then you are ‘paying’ with your time. That gives an unfair advantage to those who have a lot of time. So one could equally argue that there were already unfair advantages.

All that ‘pay to win’ actually does is re-balance things. Those who don’t have 10 hours a day to devote to mining can substitute that time with their hard earned cash. What’s the problem ? They are having to pay to not mine for those 10 hours. It’s not like they are getting it free.

Incidentally…as mining is essentially ‘camping’ and an activity that increases concurrency, it should come as no surprise that less time spent mining and more PLEX bought instead reduces concurrency and that is another explanation for the fall in concurrency.

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2715

The problem is that people without intelligence and critical thinking abilities usually compensate for their inadequacies with ignorant outrage.

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2716

I’m pretty sure that if some had their way then the ‘winners’ of Eve would be 107 year old geriatrics who’ve spent 20 years mining 18 hours a day, every day, whilst ignoring the calls of ‘come and play Scrabble !’ from the other care home residents…and who now have 500 trillion ISK…oh, and a single Velator daringly parked in a 1.0 system somewhere.

2717

By the way, I’m not trying to jump down your throat, and I certainly don’t want to go all bitter vet up in here. I can sometimes get a little soapboxy, and use people’s comments as a spring board to talk about a broader topic. Anyway, I should probably edit this post… but I’m not gonna.

Well, I mean, GM’s should deal with cases of actual griefing. But I also don’t want to see gankers having to constantly defend their actions either. Moreover, I don’t think that ganking newbros is a bad thing in and of itself. I mean, I have played many people in many different games over the years, and the only time I’ve ever seen anyone give anyone else a free pass is when people let children win. So why is it all of sudden a bad thing to “not let newbros win” in this game?

Quite honestly, I don’t think it is. Obviously, constantly harassing a guy would be a problem, but coddling newbros accomplishes nothing -well mostly nothing, it does increases the time before quitters bail, which increases the chances that they will spend money. But from the perspective of someone who actually cares about long term player retention and the health of the game, this is terrible. It stunts newbro growth as players, gives them unrealistic expectations about the game, and gives them more time to build up more assets, ensuring that their first loss is more devastating than it otherwise would have been. So, how is that good for newbros? Is it going to help them transition to a competent and happy player, or is it just increasing the chances that they get frustrated and quit… a little bit later than some otherwise would have… preferably after they’ve spent some money.

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And, as far as I’m concerned, if they quit because they got ganked, then Eve probably wasn’t the game for them. See that’s the thing. I don’t think Eve, or any game for that matter, can be a game for everyone. You can certainly appeal to different types of players, and it is possible to have a broad appeal, but at the end of the day, some players have completely incompatible desires. You cannot please everyone, and have to chose who your target audience is.

So, the question on mind right now is, will it be the people who actually want to play a challenging UPvP sandbox, or will it be the hordes of number-go-up carebears that want to optimize towards boredom without all those precocious ejaculators ruining their “fun”?

This quote from Greyscale is kind of oddly worded, but hopefully people can get at what he’s saying.

To a degree yes, and to the degree that you can support them without sacrificing your basic principles… yeah. The more players, the better. And the more diverse players, the better…

But, I think there is a point where you say this person, who wants to play for whatever reason, and it may be a great reason, and that’s fine with them, and it’s extremely insular, and they don’t want that interaction at all… this isn’t the kind of game for them. In fact, if you don’t want to play with other people… trying to cater to them in a multiplayer game seems like an odd decision to me.

-Matthew Woodward (formerly CCP Greyscale)

Okay… going to be product for real. No more internet nerd fighting.

3 Likes
2718

Yup. I think that too.

2 Likes
2719

I recall the first ( and only time so far ) time I got ganked being a ‘WTF !’ moment. It is a big deal for a noob. But it is also a defining moment where a person either has a little HTFU and develops a sort of Khan mentality of revenge…or they hurl their PC at the wall and declare Eve is ‘not fair’.

My reaction to being ganked was 'OK, you are stronger and smarter than me now…but one day I’ll be the stronger and smarter, and like Arnie I’ll be back ’

Personally I think which of the two happens is already decided before a person even joins Eve, and that trying to appeal to the rage quitters is pointless.

6 Likes
2720

At the base level neither do I, note that I said this:

If they have no idea why, they were empty of anything valuable, did not see it coming, was over so fast and had someone insulting them, then I think we have a pretty big issue. I like the attitude of people who say damn this, the butterfly affect even though after a short period they realise that blowing up a ganker in his Catalyst is pointless

The question about this is also whether they feel that they want to fight against that level of nastiness that they have just tasted, like someone deciding to post something on this forum for example.

The balance side of the equation is to remove as much mechanic based helplessness as possible from them and to give them avenues to get revenge that are meaningful.

2721

Problem with revenge is, its never fair or just enough in the eye of someone who gets a taste for meting it out to others.

Ive read plenty of comments on the forums which suggest the punishment should way out weight the crime.

2722

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