No no you are fine, I can work out both my answers by reading enough of your posts.
Just wondered if anyone else had got there yet as Ive been away a while.
I am curious enough to bite though on why Trig and FOB style ememies are better for the game than actual human ones in your opinion, asking as a hauler.
Thank you for the wise words Sasha it is very much appreciated.
Going into the argument, debate, and thread, what are some ideas you have for or against ganking that you think are fundamental and need to stay in the game and why?
Or if against ganking, the same thing, what are some ideas you can think of that we can debate together in the forums.
Doesn’t have to perfectly thought out ideas, this is why it is a thread to create community conversation.
JJ
Good question actually and I will give my opinion. If we were to go down this idea of a gank-free, or nonconsensual PvP restricted area you still need destruction, @Etch_Masuka has said this point many times and I 100% agree a big part of the circle of life in Eve runs on destruction. I always go back to FOB or Trigs because they did such a good job blowing people up in High Sec. And I know they are not the sweet spot but thought it was something we all knew, like a benchmark where to start.
So why are they better than humans? This is where I think the psychological humiliation of losing something to a stranger, and not really being able to do anything about it. If it is having a little fun in local, or inviting them to a chat challenge to mine more salt. People in the gaming community are used to dying to an NPC. Most of us have done this a thousand times, and even if we lose something permanently, we will think I will beat you next time… I know it seems really sensitive, but you see a lot of things trending this way.
JJ
I dunno, Id feel worse being out thought by a machine tbh.
At least Id know the human opponent was playing by the same rules as me, which is not the case for Trigs or FOB forces.
Also, as an aside, are the Anti Gankers like Githany Red still around? Would they still play if it was just bots to fight? Honest question.
I tend to agree with the diagnosis that you are a troll…as you change tack every 5 minutes, never actually present a consistent position, and constantly refute points you have yourself made only a few posts earlier. Every time you are challenged on a point, we get the ‘that’s not what I said’…only for you to go right back to saying just exactly what it was you denied saying.
I would agree with that, but the thread post is “High-Sec Ganking is one of the main reasons for the outflow of new players” And I have come on here and so far unsuccessfully gained any traction for any of the different thoughts or ideas above. And not all of them have to be negative for the ganker, very open to nerf PvE-only game play. Some, not all people seem much more receptive to PvE low-quality land. This is true in a lot of games. But I think there is a ton of low, wh, null space out there for all kinds of PvP activity. Very split on what makes the best sense. So are we forcing a gameplay on a big part of the Community that could be helping us pay the bills. Not sure, but that is what we are exchanging ideas about.
JJ
I think I’ve said enough, Jesse.
My views are sufficiently well-known by you and by others for me not to feel obliged to decant them here.
I follow the back-and-forth in these threads with some interest, but have heavily reduced the number of posts I make on the subject of ganking.
My attitude to EVE and to Life is the same: I use what I have in the service of what I want. If I can’t have what I want; tough.
So you arent going to look at the drawbacks of the suggestion you made because the title of the thread is a supposition without direct supporting evidence?
I dont see how that follows but ok, sure.
My angle is that I dont want to have bots chase me throught High Sec, I like that its people. I have no stake in low or null because no one needs hauling done there.
For sure not a troll, and yes I know that is what a troll would say.
I admittedly do have different ideas, I have said this more than once, but at 1200 post I do not expect you to read even a 10th of that.
Goal trying to get the cogs turning to keep the conversation going as we hash out the back and forth. I didn’t come in here with Moses tablets with ideas in stone. Very open to a multitude of ideas pertaining to the topic of the thread.
JJ
100% there will be drawbacks no matter how we divide this up. I bring it back to the title of the post because I can’t boil the ocean it is simply impossible. I don’t have the answer for every scenario, if I had all the data in front of me, yes I could make better conclusions, and I think we all could.
Fully understandable, and one idea I had for this is you can opt-in or out of PvP. Opting out would sick the rats on you, a little more aggressive, opting in would make the rats be a little less aggressive with you. You could make a million scenarios with this option. From time limits of coming in or out of the PvP eligible group, to PvE activity paying less, for example, missions pay 50% less, your ship mines 50% slower, but you only have to worry about the rats.
Plenty of games have done this type of scenario before, Eve is much more delicate in the vast universe we live in, but with some careful consideration, I think some form of this could be accomplished. If the slower earning PvE world is boring, click that button and in 24hrs you are now PvP eligible with other people that don’t mind high rewards but are subject to the surprise ganks.
JJ
I’ve been playing Eve for almost 20 years now. I’ve seen this thread a thousand and one times. We used to have a saying back in the day that seems to have been lost.
HTFU.
I dunno, we have both options now that dont require any coding or dev time, just sensible playing.
I think the bots (npcs) are way broken with their cheating currently, Id much rather they operate like players, if at all.
Which would mean following the rules the rest of us have to.
Otherwise you just end up with people complaining that now the bots are too hard and unfair.
If its the humiliation angle you are on about, limiting comms would fix that immeadiately.
Ofc, that actually also already exists, its just barely documented these days.
Yeah, it is fine, this is where most conversations come back to. The game is fine, nothing to change, it is a game style.
For the NPC, (bot is typically a human program controlling capsuleer(s)) unless that is what you are referring to. But for the NPCs it would take some Dev time to get them right. I believe they have made recent changes to NPC in the last couple of years, and their behavior on gates and the like. I don’t see why they couldn’t be held to the same standards and timelines as a capsuleer ship.
And the rats could be dynamic, they don’t have to be static. Maybe 1.0 -0.9 systems NPCs are soft and can’t tackle a capsuleer, and by the time you make it to a 0.5 system, the rats are fairly tough, not impossible, but tough.
There are many other ways one could do it, and try to make the game as balanced as possible in high sec. coding for low, wh, and null could stay the same.
JJ
Which leads to the question, why havent they? Why do CCP make them better?
Unless we know why a thing is the way it is, it is foolish to ask it to be changed.
The title of the thread is a claim without substance. Where is the actual evidence that the claim is true ? Not only is there zero evidence, but data gathered by CCP themselves has consistently shown that ganking leads to more players being retained than lost. I am myself one such example. The one time I’ve been ganked…early on in Eve…did not cause me to leave. In fact it had the reverse effect of causing me to stick around to one day be in a position of strength. And clearly the ganking hasn’t made you leave either…or any of the others here, every one of whom has likely been ganked at some point.
Eve is a cruel universe. It is even advertised as such. It is a game that is fundamentally about having a survival mentality. Of course there are going to be those who cannot cope with that and who leave and go back to farming simulations or whatever. But that is no reason to make the game easier for the carebears. People thrive in Eve because it is tough. And if people cannot cope…well the door is that way >>>
so you are saying to remove all ICE and ORE from the entirety of HS? cause mining is PvP also.
Nah ■■■■■, you moved the goal posts, you say PvP not just ganking, so no more Mining in HS ever again right?
Right? MOFO? Thats what you are saying? no ice, no ore , no gas
I didn’t make the thread for record, no idea who did at this point. But I could make a thread that states ganking adds more to the game and I would still have no evidence for this.
This is true everyone that got ganked and is still in the game is a higher number than the people that were ganked LEFT the game and never answered a survey on why they left. If you were ganked and stayed in the game, CCP doesn’t need a survey from you they have that data. Do you see why this is bad data, and CCP has backed away from that statement after being pointed out? With that said though PvP is a huge part of the game, and people come to it specifically wanting to join that path.
I do love the game, and yes I have been blown up a million times. But I am not a recent starter (1yr or less) and I am trying to put myself in their shoes. Times change, and it comes down to numbers. If more people would be in the game with fewer options to gank, then it makes sense to make room for that. I don’t want to destroy our universe, but ganking is far from balanced, so it is already fundamentally bad for our universe in that sense.
JJ
No belts can stay where they are, just the PvP activity I was talking about in the scenario. Let me define player vs player I am referring to so you are no longer the confused little man. PvP I am referring to is high sec ganking, just shorter than always writing ganking. So let’s say I am a T1 barge mining a rock, loving life, and all of sudden 5 scary elite PvP players blow me away. That is the activity in the discussion, in high sec. All the market PvP, and rock PvP, yeah okay hundred other mentions above, but yeah not what we are talking about here.
JJ
no, he means more NO ISK reward for missions, and no ISK bounties for rats or missions…and no type of ore the turns into minerals used for manufacturing.
in 100% safe area, that is what needs to be done, cause otherwise such players are COMPETING with others…Market PVP, with no way to interfere in their activities.
and FECK your NPC idea, cause its gameable.