Jag lämnade mina papper på stationen
Ship loss impacts fits, strats, profitability, and engagement profiles. It’s not meaningless -it has profound effects. And the fact that gankers have found ways to deal with guaranteed ship loss doesn’t change this fact. It’s like trying to argue that the challenge of level 6 abyssals is meaningless when it is possible to make blinged out Gilas that are capable of performing the task.
This is just logically unsound. I mean, your argument basically amounts to, “it’s meaningless if people can find a solution.” Which, of course, implies that it will be properly balanced when people can no longer find a solution that works.
Standing loss impacts strats, profitability, and engagement profiles. For example, you can lose a ship to an anti-ganker when trying to taking a gate, you can’t linger anywhere where you actually want to hunt things (i.e. on gates or ded space pockets), it is excessively difficult to multibox in any system that you can’t tether in, you can’t use your gankers for anything else, including other forms of HS PvE, or, you have pay a substantial cost in either time or money in order to raise your standings… Of course, if you disagree with my assertion that the cost is substantial, feel free to present your math and prove me wrong.
Once again, this argument is logically unsound. The fact that gankers find ways to operate with negative security status doesn’t make it meaningless.
Now, where do we go from here? Will you:
- defer to my first hand knowledge and experience
- tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about as you argue from your position of ignorance
- accuse me of somehow arguing in bad faith
- adjust your arguments to more defensible positions (i.e. standing loss is meaningless → raising standings should cost even more, or the penalties of negative sec status aren’t sufficient).
If you’re smart, you’ll go with option 4. If you’re wise, you’ll go with option 1.
2 Likes
That one caught me by surprise and gave me a good laugh.
1 Like
Okay, I have no doubt that Ramona was just doing some word play to create some humor. She didn’t actually report you, and it wasn’t a joke at your expense. So, don’t feel like you can’t post in english any more.
Då måste du gå och leta efter dem där.
Exactly as intended 
2 Likes
I as much as a troll as you are a reader of post. Not much one at all. I understand MMO means multiplayer, I understand that the games best activities are interaction with other people. I just disagree it needs to be in PvP combat fashion only.
I don’t get mad explaining it over and over to you. I am here for you.
JJ
It is meaningless in an economy with such a huge gap between high earning activities and cost of entry ships, which is not balanced against the power of a cluster of said entry ships against a much more expensive single target. You can buy up to 100 T1 ganking catalysts with what you earn in an hour of incursion running, or high end abyssal, or wormhole ratting, but with those you can take down tens of hours worth of the same activities, and even profit from loot.
True, you can’t camp gates or sites, but you can set up a station and camp tethered, and that’s what most do: keep their ganking alt docked/tethered in the same station, and do other stuff (such as taking gates) with other characters.
The cost is insubstantial because it is just avoidable. There is no real reason for a ganker to raise their standing if all activities that could pose a risk (such undocking or leaving tether) are completely avoided until the last second, here’s your mat.
Oh, and that’s if you aren’t using alpha alt for ganking, in that case you can just delete them and create them again.
That said, I’m sorry to see people become defensive like that, up to the point of inventing convoluted thought patterns like that “it’s meaningless if people can find a solution”, it really takes some creative mind to come up with something like that and putting in other people’s mouth, that’s a good example of Straw man - Wikipedia
I’m not against hisec ganking, I’m paranoid enough to manage to avoid it. But I can’t help but noticing that some game mechanics clearly intended to limit it are circumvented with the use of other game mechanics in a way that doesn’t really feel like it was designed
A least someone gets it, the game is what you want it to be. You can’t be wrong, but only need to be mindful of it.
And Eve is changing, it will be forced to if you like it or not. Heilmar has new bosses he isn’t a stand-alone CEO, he works for Pearl. Ignoring the fact change is needed is only a detriment to the short-sighted.
JJ
2 Likes
I do not understand how you think my posting comments is trolling. Forums are a group of opinions posted in a thread that has a title. Nerf Ganking Megathred. Essentially uninvited PvP (combat) in high sec with a player that doesn’t want to be a part of that gameplay. Not here to see it your way, and then you say I am trolling.
JJ
I don’t think the argument is can you or can’t you not gank. You can, it is in the game. But should it be taken out for the health of the game, and I believe strongly yes, long with several other vets in the game.
You can sit here and say the game is perfect and nothing needs to change, but player counts slowly goes down yearly, and yet change nothing it is perfect. No is the answer to that, we need to find out what the masses want. I promise you there isn’t enough gankers in the game to keep the servers live. Change needs and mostly likely will happen. CCP has too much to risk (all) if the game dies.
JJ
You know what? There is very little ganking going on in EVE right now. There’s hardly anyone playing. They don’t need to nerf ganking… gankers have already given up.
1 Like
A quote from the opening of your post:
Meaningless, Lodemai? Work out for yourself the number of accounts required to fly those Catalysts (1 Catalyst per account, remember). However few or many the pilots, they will have to have the time, the know-how and the skill both to execute the gank and to meet the demands of managing their computer screens and keyboards - always supposing they have suitable hardware, of course.
It costs me more than pixel-money, Lodemai.
She’s not a troll. But yes, she did make a mistake in asserting that MMO’s have to feature PvP. Eve, however, is a PvP MMO.
The first truthful thing you’ve actually said.
And yes, investors have significant sway on how things will be. It will boil down to dollars and where will they get them from.
But my argument was
EvE was designed (past tense, inferring to its inception) as a pvp game with pve elements. That was Heilmars dream. Is it that today? Probably not.
I heard CCP is introducing a new career path in the next update. Ganker. Can anyone confirm this?
Okay, that’s one way of looking at things. Here’s another- server population is down because CCP keeps compromising on the fundamental pillars of the game in order to cater more and more to people that don’t actually want to play the game. The end result is a compromise that no one is happy with. CCP probably does need to pick a lane, and catering to the people who want a more cooperative/PvE focused experience is one possible solution. It is risky to pivot the game in a new direction (especially for a dev that specializes in PvP games), and requires more work (devs create the content), but the carebears do outnumber the “HTFU” crowd. Another possible solution is to recommit to the core pillars of the game. The audience that wants that type of game is smaller, but it’s less risky because you’re not trying to change the fundamental nature of the game, and it requires less work (players are the content).
We agree that change is needed. Where we disagree is on what change is needed, and your apparent inability to separate your personal preferences and desires from “what the players want.” Truth is, different players want different things. And to get what you want, that means ruining the game for the players who actually love Eve for what it is.
3 Likes
It gives that feeling of being forced into a dark tunnel when you would rather go around.
1 Like
The True Cost of Ganking
You failed to account for:
- failed ganks
- gank ships and haulers lost to AG activity
- failures to secure the loot drop
- plex/MCT costs (optional)
- tags (optional)
- Structure/Fuel Costs (optional)
- The fact that the fewer players you can put on a target, the greater isk to DPS ratio of your ship (in other words, the actual cost of ganking ships can be much, much more, depending on circumstances).
So yeah, you’ve committed a frequent mistake of players with no real ganking experience, and limited your analysis to a best case-cost of one thing. It’s kind of like trying to prove that McDonalds is overcharging for hamburgers by simply adding up the cost of ingredients. Methinks you might have forgot to account for a few things.
Ship Cost Disparity Does Not Equal Bad Balance
Second, balance is not achieved entirely through cost. Player skill, character skills, and number of players can, and should, also play a role. And it is absolutely amazing to me how people can look at the cost of 40 catalysts versus the cost of a freighter, and say it’s way too cheap to kill a freighter, but completely ignore the fact that it took 40 guys to kill just one dude. That’s some serious cherry picking, if you ask me.
Really? Do you think that CCP is unware that gankers are tethering given just how frequent and vehement complaints about it are? Or that it’s impossible for them to create a flag that prevents gankers from tethering -especially considering they have created many other conditions that prevent tether? I mean, if we can’t infer developer intent after 6 years of citadel tethering being available to gankers, at what point can we? Same thing goes for tags, or whatever other mechanics you are referring to.
2 Likes
Well you can’t prove a negative…
There is more to ganking than what you see. Gankers choose their targets. It’s not random. Often times they’ll look at your zkillboard to check your fitting from your previous demise. Go through any system, most (+80%) miners don’t have their hardners spinning. They are going to pick the softest target. If they blow it, they have to wait out their timers, reship and find another system.
I along with my corpmates have a bunch of counters. I can talk out of the forum.
Oh…what just happened there??? The pressure of ganking and responding to it improves the game. Trust me you don’t want to live in a perfectly safe Eve of rainbows, unicorns and Smurfs. Bleah. It would be boring and the price of mined materials would plummet.
2 Likes