Permanent three-week block permanently applied to Ax’l Thorne for one year. Additionally I will be quitting the forums in protest and changing my in-game bio to reflect this action.
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Just so you know, that I blocked you so I won’t be reading any posts from you except for every post you make so I can continue to block you.
So, there. Take that. And enjoy perma-quitting the forums until you don’t.
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Heh, just Ax’l being Ax’l again…
…
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If you want me to read your posts, you need to make them short and sweet. Only lazy people write long ass posts like that Destiny.
TUT TUT
Damn it I scrolled down 200 post to see
I’m disappointed
just githany being githany
Githany(s)
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I love the big boy moment great job. So your friend had that one gank ship bearing down on them, wow must have been something to see. I guess gankers have gotten progressively worse over time. Even for a venture, they bring two based on zkill. Nice story, though. The issue is nowadays to get you up to date is that no one is being ganked with one ship. The average T2 miner looks to be hit with 10-20 ships. I was able to find a few solo ganks in high sec, all in Jita going to Jita 4-4, usually a shuttle/frigate size ship with high value loot.
Half of the new players don’t even know how to fit their ship. But I digress on what the topic is about. Ganking a 5-year-old player, honestly, isn’t what I care about in most circumstances. If we wanted to agree on ganking staying in-game, with some balancing mechanics/fees/pirate life is harder type additions and new players up to a point are safe, I could get on board with this. I believe that would be a met in the middle.
I want griefing completely removed from the game. Still open to meet in the middle somewhere if ganking stays, but gankers think it is balanced, and others don’t think it is balanced. If you look at risk (loss of a destroyer aka nothing) and reward it looks like gankers are OP in gameplay and need an additional nerf if that is increasing mining ship HP or other means through drop rates in a suicide gank i.e. it only drops max 25% ever, except for the special 90% drop weekend or maybe other ideas out there.
The Great PvP Debate is a compilation of good points, and I agree with a lot of them. They make sense and I would say I have had similar thoughts outlined in the article. One thing I don’t think you are considering is the size of an MMO area, being one server with thousands of systems, and unrestricted PvP in Low, WH, and Null, still allows for great content and battles to form (when was the last great battle in high sec). I do also agree without keeping some of the mechanics like suspect status and the like, a restricted PvP area could have a possibility of player behavioral changes, but with proper mechanics of like suspect timers, this can be managed.
And this doesn’t need to be spun as anti-PvP. There should be scenarios for PvP in high sec through war, faction warfare, suspect timers, and possibly others that are not here yet. If ganking is a community thing we think should stay in the game, then let’s balance it correctly and I think you will see the balance take its natural order in the game. And griefing on anyone, but mostly new players need to go. I do focus on new players, but if a 10-year-old pilot is ganked in a shuttle, there is nothing to gain there.
The first major gate camp in Amarr, where CCP brought in NPC fleets and then banished the group to all parts of space, it was a funny time and I bet most don’t remember those events. But eventually ended, but hey it gave us gate guns we didn’t have before. Good 2003 article see people have been whining since the start, just another day in Eve.
And I like your spill on the Sith and Jedi but never mention Sith… I guess you don’t have a biased feeling, do you? Completely open and not one-sided and this is mostly the problem, real conversation and debating aren’t wanting, it is simply changing and is viewed as an attack when it is just a conversation to think of ways of how can make it better or debate why it should stay.
Recap for you:
- We need griefing removed altogether from game
- Argument isn’t about PvP
- Ganking is fine if it is balanced; otherwise, remove it from the game
- Everything in this thread is high sec only; ganking does exist in any other space that is content
JJ
lol,
Thanks for another post that added no value to the thread. Your contributions are always welcomed and if you would like to make a point, make it in question form, or statement form for me to respond to. I love a good argument and I am okay being convinced otherwise, I mean that is the point of the conversation. And for clarification, this thread will have to work as the conversation medium.
Thanks lol
JJ
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We as players cant even seem to agree on the definition of griefing, so that needs to be addressed first
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then what is it about? If griefing, see above
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its balanced, so its fine. No need to discuss ganking further in this context then.
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high sec is the only place ganking within the context given takes place, so this point is moot.
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Griefing can be defined as performing an active in-game that no one gains from the outcome. It only set another player back at the expense of a player’s behavior in-game.
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Ganking can be broken down into two buckets. Griefing where no one gains, and then Ganking is where you take out a target, and the Ganker gains. Griefing is looked at by most as bad. Ganking is looked at by most as acceptable if balanced.
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Ganking is not balanced, but yes that is how the argument starts. How do we balance it.
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It was more of an outer rim of where to keep the argument at. So the comments about the new player dying in a low sec system so should we change that too. For a good argument in the Megathread, maybe we should focus on what really needs to change, and possibly we get somewhere with all this.
JJ
That’s an exageration, but you are right in that gankers are throwing more ships at barges. However, they aren’t doing it all willy nilly; it’s because ganking nerfs have resulted in the need to do so. If you look at the math, it straight up takes more gankers to kill miners than it used to. Naturally, this can be changed by buffing ganking/nerfing barges, but I’m thinking most miners aren’t going to be thrilled about that.
For the second point, I am strongly opposed to coddling newbros. They have more than enough protections, and I believe that more will be to their detriment -it will stunt their growth, allow them to develop a bunch of bad habits, give them a false impression about the game, and give them more time to build up assets, which will greatly increase the chances that their first losses are devastating, instead of easily replaceable. So, I don’t think that coddling them is the answer. Instead, I think it’s important to equip newbros with the tools and attitude that will help them deal with setbacks and learn from their mistakes.
No, it’s been brought up before, and I’ve most certainly thought about it. I firmly believe, however, that a PvP free zone won’t work out well for Sith, and that splitting Eve into PvE and PvP servers won’t work out well for anyone.
PvP Free Zone Problems Include:
- making it easier for players to fall victim to the PvP readiness fallacy*
- stunting player growth
- creating a bigger difficulty spike between highsec and lowsec**, which will discourage people from making the transition
- Eve’s PvE is serviceable at best. Thus, if that’s the only thing that new players get to see, more players (especially sith) will think the game sucks, and quit (P.S. this is already an issue, as is evident by some player and youtuber reviews)
- Greater ability for players to optimize towards boredom, which can even hurt Jedi player retention
Split Server Issues:
- All previously mentioned issues
- Splitting the player base of an already niche game, which can result in the population dropping below a critical social mass
- Creating huge disincentives for players to switch over to the PvP server because they would lose all progression and leave their friends behind
*Note: A sizeable number of players want to PvP, but fall victim to the so called PvP readiness fallacy. They think they need more SP, more isk, and/or more experience, and will try to avoid PvP until they’re “ready,” and can even end up quitting the game out of boredom even before they ever partake. UPvP fights against people’s hesitations and fears by forcing them to partake. My first solo kill story is a good example of this. If I didn’t have to chose between defending my buddy or leaving him to die, I would not have stayed and fought.
**Note: I dispute the idea that highsec is the most dangerous area of space. Most people die in highsec not because it is dangerous, but because it houses 70% of the player base, and because it’s home to a disproportionately large number of newer and more casual players.
Ganking has already been nerfed to the point, I don’t think it can take much more. Yet, people keep asking for CCP to go further. It’s where one more nerf comes from. Hell, ganking has received three nerfs in a row, and is in a really bad spot right now, and you’re still in here asking for more.
I agree with that on the surface, but it’s not a problem. CCP has even said so in the past. Of course, Ratatti said differently at fanfest 2022, so you might argue that it has somehow become a problem in the years that have passsed. That, of course, is a possibility, and I have no doubt that there are bad actors out there. However, another is that CCP is lying, and is instead trying to provide justification for throwing ganking under the bus. Naturally, this is a conspiracy theory, but it’s also not the craziest one ever. They’ve already been slowly killing ganking off, they have previously said this is a “myth” that they had repeatedly failed to validate, and their analysis of the issue was absolutely terrible (and no, I don’t think CCP is as stupid as other players think they are.)
Meh. That’s enough.
??? So ship spinning or sitting afk is griefing???
Yes, it is though
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Please stop griefing other forum users.
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He actually was making a point, it’s just that he didn’t explain it to someone who’s unfamiliar with the argument or use a whole lot of tact.
In fact, have you ever seen Matt Woodward’s (formerly CCP Greyscale) GDC lecture on the sandbox nature of Eve? I won’t fault you for not wanting to watch an hour long lecture, but it does give some insight into how some players (including me) look at the game.
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That is very interesting.
“Players optimize towards boredom”
That is so true. And many of them, in my experience don’t want anything to disrupt that boredom. e.g. having someone like me pull off shenanigans with them. Then later down the road they get to a point where they say “this game is boring, it just sucks” and leave.
This is why player interactions, ganking, baiting are so important in high sec. Without those things, people will “optimize to boredom” without any disruption.
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“Griefing”, in my playbook, is when the objective of one player is to psychologically harm another.
People who shoot me in a PvP game do not fit this description on that basis alone. I don’t think anyone who’s ever shot me or blown up my stuff has done so to cause me any real life pain. I can concede that people who do this may exist, but if they do they are not common enough that I can claim to have witnessed one.
It seems to me that, as a group, ‘Sith’, if we’re using that term, treat the game world and what goes on in it as separate from the real world and what goes on there. If someone inflicts some in game loss on a ‘Sith’ type individual, it is no big deal. The ‘Jedi’, on the other hand, seem to have a tendency to equate the two. An assault on their ship is an assault on their person, and they escalate an in game conflict to an out of game one, hence the spectacular meltdowns in local chat.
I think the “Jedi” do more of what I’d call griefing by gaslighting ‘Sith’ into thinking that they’re bad people, or by saying things that are straight up vile and hurtful to make their play as unwholesome and miserable as they possibly can.
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I agree with this. A lot of high seccers have a tendency to conflate in game actions with RL actions. It’s a mark of immaturity and a lack of development on their part.
I’ve used this example in the past but I think it fits. In the eyes of high seccers, the actor Gary Oldman must be a terrible person in RL because he played some villains in some movies (Zorg in The Fifth Element, Dr. Smith in Lost in Space) Just like I must be a horrible person in RL because I take on the persona and role of a belligerent in a video game. I gank in game therefore I must do unspeakable things to kittens and puppies in RL.
It was from the one, but it looks to be 5-8 on average to take out a normal T2 miner. This point was argued that we were saying you could do something, but with this many targets, there is little you can do to 5-8 targets in the Concord response time.
Allowing a new player to develop skills and understand the game isn’t coddling. And they have no more protection than the 15-year player. We can disagree it will be to their detriment. As players stay in the game longer, they start figuring out what does what and what EHP means; it won’t take 100K damage to kill you, it still only takes 25K damage to kill you. I feel those types of things are still confusing to new players, and giving them ample time to understand more of the game doesn’t hurt anything. I said a year, maybe the better number is 6 months or 18 months I don’t know.
I don’t see any of what you mentioned being a major issue. I suppose you would need to say there isn’t an issue today, and this would create the issue and would be a better way to look at it. You already have the vast majority of people in high sec, if we were distributed a little better and you were to say it will only get worse, I guess an argument. But nothing here isn’t already a potential issue today.
This doesn’t really change anything. If it is happening today, are you saying maybe a change in-game is needed, and this goes away? People that want to PvP will go try it. People that don’t care for it won’t. I think that will for the most part stay true under normal circumstances.
You think ganking has been nerfed. Let me give you two images and pretend they are PvP Battle reports, if this is how the numbers are to stay how many PvP people do you think there would be?
And I have fixed your HighSec number for Aiko. Here is the formula for your own sheet.
Percentage Change = (new number - original number) / original number
Hulk Percentage Change = (3.35-5.18) / 5.18 = 35%
It is an old post, but I know CCP has said this in the past. The time is changing, and 2015 is not 2022, we simply have a different crowd, and older players are leaving all the time. We need new players to come in.
I don’t think CCP will fully throw ganking under the bus, and they are actively looking at how they can make it work in the community. I think the serenity server had some awesome ideas to make this work. Where gankers don’t get any of the loot in the ship but their own special ganker currency. This can be controlled better, and limits can be set on it like anything else that pays in the game.