Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Lucas_Kell

Then new players will continue to leave, eventually the game will die and then it’ll be gone. All because your position has zero room for compromise.

I mean, when I joined the game in 2011, I was never engaged illegally in high sec. And even when I went into Mai with my Harbinger to run a mission, the guy there found me, tackled me and then talked to me about how this is a dangerous place, that I should be careful where my missions lead me and how I could stay safe. Then they let me go. I had a lot of good experiences back then.

@Lucas_Kell

I think they are, it’s just important to push those losses down to line, to reduce early risks so people can figure out that they actually like the game.

I do not think that this is a good approach. What is the point in introducing them to one game that they might like and cushions them in cotton and foam, and then suddenly they are thrust into a relatively different game with different rules and much more risk, which they have not experienced before and which goes against what they like. This approach feels more like predatory marketing by tricking people into something (enjoyable game) and then changing that thing into the opposite (risky, far less enjoyable game). I would not like this at all.

@Lucas_Kell

Doubt. Trade hubs aren’t selected just on safety. 1.0s are already safer due to shorter concord response times, so if that were the reason they’d have moved already, and certainly so after numerous burn Jita events.

Doubt all you want but the removal of Talos swarms waiting for you in Jita or Tornados on the Amarr or Dodi undock or Maller smartbombers on the Perimeter gate or Catalysts on your Abyssal trace in Jita are pretty big reasons to move trade to new locations. Low Concord latency does not prevent ganks. Locked green safety prevents all PVP except for consensual PVP. That’s a whole different story than just lower concord latency. Definitely much more tangible reasons than anything ever done before to change the status quo of trade hubs.

[QuakeGod]

The problem is the type of new players playing EVE these days. They are expecting EVE to be just another easy Fruit Ninja/harvesting game. They have zero patience or will to have to actually compete. I see new players every single day whining that their ship got destroyed in a career agent mission. Why? Because they didn’t even bother to read the mission details where it explicitly says that you are going to lose that ship. Most new players also skip the tutorial, then whine and ask a billion questions in Rookie Help because they can’t even figure out how to warp to the next system. The current generation of gamers are the problem, not the mechanics of EVE…

[Lucas_Kell]

@Dyver_Phycad

I mean, when I joined the game in 2011, I was never engaged illegally in high sec. And even when I went into Mai with my Harbinger to run a mission, the guy there found me, tackled me and then talked to me about how this is a dangerous place, that I should be careful where my missions lead me and how I could stay safe. Then they let me go. I had a lot of good experiences back then.

Yep, and this is exactly the type of experience newbies should have now. Competitive but not pointlessly vicious.

@Dyver_Phycad

I do not think that this is a good approach. What is the point in introducing them to one game that they might like and cushions them in cotton and foam, and then suddenly they are thrust into a relatively different game with different rules and much more risk, which they have not experienced before and which goes against what they like.

Because once they’ve built up they’ll be in a position that they can handle the loss without it being such a setback. It’s what CCP referred to at fanfest as being able to bootstrap back into the ship. It’s much harder earlier on when you don’t have accrued assets to fall back on. It’s not a trick, players that have built up really will be able to recover a lot easier than players that haven’t had the chance yet.

And because most veterans never experienced a game that was as aggressively hostile to newbies as it is now, most of us did build up that buffer before we encountered our first losses.

@Dyver_Phycad

Low Concord latency does not prevent ganks.

It significantly reduces their likelihood though. There are plenty of hubs in lower that 09 systems too. If you were correct that hubs go where the safety is then all of them would be in 1.0 systems. The reality is that hubs go where they are convenient for consumers.

@QuakeGod

The problem is the type of new players playing EVE these days

It’s not new, this has always been the case. EVE just wasn’t as aggressive and difficult as you pretend it was back in the day. This is like when old people whine at young people for not being able to get on the housing ladder, even though the older people paid less in relative wealth for their house than most people now have to pay in the deposit alone.

[QuakeGod]

Ganking and bumping have been a thing since day 1. Groups like CODE have been around for over a decade. So yes, we had it just as “bad” as the new players have it. We didn’t even have an NPE, career agents, or even a skill queue. If you wanted to train another skill after one finished, you had to log in and start the next one. Cry me a river…

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Lucas_Kell

Because once they’ve built up they’ll be in a position that they can handle the loss without it being such a setback. It’s what CCP referred to at fanfest as being able to bootstrap back into the ship. It’s much harder earlier on when you don’t have accrued assets to fall back on. It’s not a trick, players that have built up really will be able to recover a lot easier than players that haven’t had the chance yet.

I do not think that this is how this works with players. Someone who is used to and expects and easy and calm game will not be less aggravated by a loss 1 month or 6 months in. You just need to look at all the vile and vitriol that older players throw around when they lose an Ishtar in null sec or get their Orca bumped for a time in high sec.

This is simply not how players work, especially not in EVE.

A better way is to explain to them as early as possible what they have to expect when they undock.

@Lucas_Kell

If you were correct that hubs go where the safety is then all of them would be in 1.0 systems. The reality is that hubs go where they are convenient for consumers.

Amarr is not convenient, it’s far away from most relevant low sec entries. It’s the hub because of lore reasons. Jita was convenient because of the L4 missions, which are all gone, and NewCal or Perimeter are all better options because they are closer to important low sec entries. Dodi and Rens are irrelevant. But in terms of PVP it really does not make a difference if they are in 0.9 or 1.0. With this locked safety there would be a massive difference, once that has never been there before and that is completely impossible to circumvent. This makes it much more convenient for customers.

[Daekarus_Prime]

Hello Altara,

that’s right, I’ve created my account back in 2020 but since then I’ve mostly kept my client open while working from home, and trying to complete career agent’s/arc missions during weekends. Never really engaged in PvP yet.

I believe we can agree that there is no real correlation between account age and effective in-game experience. Besides, I don’t know the average ship loss of an account old as mine but I bet would be higher then 36

Finally, I’ve never stated that my question was deriving from any sort of grief/bad experience, I was just curious to know people’s opinions related to the hypothetical scenario I presented around a topic that I thought to be significant for new players.

[Lucas_Kell]

@QuakeGod

Ganking and bumping have been a thing since day 1.

But at nowhere near the same scale. You know this.

@Dyver_Phycad

I do not think that this is how this works with players. Someone who is used to and expects and easy and calm game will not be less aggravated by a loss 1 month or 6 months in.

It works this way in every other game so I don’t know why you think it would suddenly not apply to EVE.

@Dyver_Phycad

You just need to look at all the vile and vitriol that older players throw around when they lose an Ishtar in null sec or get their Orca bumped for a time in high sec.

How many ragequit the game because they don’t feel it’s worth the time to grind back into another one?

@Dyver_Phycad

A better way is to explain to them as early as possible what they have to expect when they undock.

That still won’t help. Saying “oh hey, you’re gonna lose everything” doesn’t do anything when you lose weeks of effort early on. I think you are looking at this from your point of view, where you already like EVE and want to stick around. A new player does not have that connection with the game so if you remove several weeks of progress early on just because some veteran wanted a killboard stat, they are far less likely to stick around to repeat the grind.

@Dyver_Phycad

But in terms of PVP it really does not make a difference if they are in 0.9 or 1.0. With this locked safety there would be a massive difference, once that has never been there before and that is completely impossible to circumvent.

There’s no way we can settle this, so it’s pointless debating. I think you’re categorically wrong but until it happens there’s no way to prove it either way.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Lucas_Kell

It works this way in every other game so I don’t know why you think it would suddenly not apply to EVE.

Which other game is like EVE with no PVP protection anywhere by design? Albion is certainly not because you have lots of areas where you can farm and are completely safe from PVP because it’s not allowed. Which other games that are like EVE by design have new player protection that cushions them completely?

@Lucas_Kell

How many ragequit the game because they don’t feel it’s worth the time to grind back into another one?

Then they quit a game that they do not enjoy and do not waste money and time into something that they won’t enjoy a month or 2 down the line either when the newbie protection runs out. It’s a flawed notion that EVE needs every player it can get at all cost. That only draws in more people that do not understand EVE, do not want to understand EVE and who want to change into something that EVE is not supposed to be. Sadly, we have already been making big strides into that direction with more and more instanced PVE and PVP.

@Lucas_Kell

A new player does not have that connection with the game so if you remove several weeks of progress early on just because some veteran wanted a killboard stat, they are far less likely to stick around to repeat the grind.

And losing weeks of grinding 2 months or so later is different in which way? By that time these people have invested money and time into a game that taught them it’s safe to do whatever you want if you stay in certain systems. But the moment you go outside of these systems or the moment your newbie protection runs out, your marauder or exhumer that you trained and ground for suddenly is at a completely different level of risk everywhere. These people who cannot sustain to lose a mining frigate or PVE cruiser or a barge won’t have a different opinion on the loss 2 days in or 2 months in.

@Lucas_Kell

There’s no way we can settle this, so it’s pointless debating. I think you’re categorically wrong but until it happens there’s no way to prove it either way.

You think that because you and the OP approach this from a fundamentally flawed perspective. Newbies or any player (since this Green Lock is for all players and not just newbies) don’t need more protection than they already have. They need to learn to survive in a risky environment. You do that best if you know what to expect when you undock and are out in space and when someone gave you hints to things to pay attention to. You will still lose things but you know why it happened and can learn from it.

I totally see why this opinion is “categorically wrong” these days but that doesn’t mean anyone who says I am categorically wrong is right in return.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Dyver_Phycad

Which other game is like EVE with no PVP protection anywhere by design?

No game needs to be for the principle to apply.

@Dyver_Phycad

Then they quit a game that they do not enjoy and do not waste money and time into something that they won’t enjoy a month or 2 down the line either when the newbie protection runs out.

Problem solved then I guess. Go tell CCP not to worry about falling player numbers and losing money on the game, because you said it’s fine that people quit.

@Dyver_Phycad

Sadly, we have already been making big strides into that direction with more and more instanced PVE and PVP.

This is happening because CCP is desperate to find new players. Refusing to accept any compromise for new player experiences is certainly not going to make them any less desperate.

@Dyver_Phycad

And losing weeks of grinding 2 months or so later is different in which way?

Again, because they will have built up a buffer. I’m not sure how I’m losing you. Here, I’ll try to simplify it right down.

Player A. Plays for 2 weeks, gets killed loses everything, loss of progress: 100% of total gametime.
Player B. Plays for 10 weeks, gets killed, loses last two weeks of gains, loss of progress: 20% of total gametime.

@Dyver_Phycad

These people who cannot sustain to lose a mining frigate or PVE cruiser or a barge won’t have a different opinion on the loss 2 days in or 2 months in.

Of course they will, because someone 2 months in will have more experience and more built up assets to be able to more quickly recover. By your logic I’m 18 years in but should still feel the same loss if I lose a barge as a new player does.

@Dyver_Phycad

You think that because you and the OP approach this from a fundamentally flawed perspective.

No, I think this because I understand how trade hubs work and know it has sweet FA to do with the safety of the system the actual hub sits in.

@Dyver_Phycad

Newbies or any player (since this Green Lock is for all players and not just newbies) don’t need more protection than they already have.

Go argue that with CCP because their research clearly shows you are wrong, which is why they stated at fanfest they will be addressing this.

@Dyver_Phycad

They need to learn to survive in a risky environment.

Again, nonsense. That’s just you as an already established player, pretending that every players has to fight through a gauntlet to be permitted to stay, even though it’s highly likely you had no such restrictions placed on you when you joined.

What you want is to try to paint the game now as some hardcore experience so you can say “and I’m here so I must too be a hardcore elite!”. Goddamn phoneys the lot of you.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

How many ragequit the game because they don’t feel it’s worth the time to grind back into another one?

Hang on a minute. Your entire position is based on the supposition that you know the answer to that question. Otherwise you are inventing a problem, not responding to one.

[Lucas_Kell]

No it’s not.

I thought you blocked me. I knew I was too irresistable.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Lucas_Kell

Go tell CCP not to worry about falling player numbers and losing money on the game, because you said it’s fine that people quit.

Player numbers fall because of completely different reasons than ganking a single digit number of new players every day.

@Lucas_Kell

Again, because they will have built up a buffer. I’m not sure how I’m losing you. Here, I’ll try to simplify it right down.

Player A. Plays for 2 weeks, gets killed loses everything, loss of progress: 100% of total gametime.
Player B. Plays for 10 weeks, gets killed, loses last two weeks of gains, loss of progress: 20% of total gametime.

You lose me because I do not think that this is how players think. This is based on past experiences with EVE players. If they cannot bear a cheap loss, they are very likely not a personality that can bear a bigger loss, regardless of how much buffer wealth they have – Especially since you can lose your shiny toy very quickly again after you replaced it if you go into the same areas of space where it’s risky to do things. The psychology principle that enough buffer makes someone less likely to ragequit is bogus. If a person cannot deal with a loss, it will not be able to, regardless of the level of wealth they have.

@Lucas_Kell

By your logic I’m 18 years in but should still feel the same loss if I lose a barge as a new player does.

That is not my logic. My logic is that you are a player that learned to play the game, learned to pay attention and be mindful of your surroundings. That is what the game and the players taught you, and you are a personality that can deal with it. Players who need additional protection to not quit this environment after losing a cheap frigate or barge (regardless if it’s their entire wealth or not) don’t have this personality and will only make the game worse with demands like these.

@Lucas_Kell

Go argue that with CCP because their research clearly shows you are wrong, which is why they stated at fanfest they will be addressing this.

Their research is not worth the energy to light up the digits on the screen that display it. Their research has also shown that their past umpteenth attempts at NPE were a success. They base their research on people who do not play EVE and thus do not understand EVE. Of course, that kind of research tells them that these people want this kind of stuff to feel safe and welcomed and will only stay if they are being kept safe from danger.

@Lucas_Kell

That’s just you as an already established player, pretending that every players has to fight through a gauntlet to be permitted to stay, even though it’s highly likely you had no such restrictions placed on you when you joined.

Mhhh, no, I probably did not. Back then, the game was in a much healthier state. Back then I could talk in my starter corp’s chat for hours and have a great conversation and get answers to my questions when I could not find them online. But I also see myself as someone who doesn’t shy away from the first bit of danger (evidenced by me mindlessly going into low sec because I thought it’s almost empty, so what are 2 guys in local going to do to me anyway?) Back then, suspect baiting was not prohibited in starter systems. Back then, niarja was a hellhole. Back then people used can flipping to trick miners everywhere into getting suspect timers so that they could be killed legally. Nothing of that exists anymore because CCP put a lot of restrictions on involuntary PVP. In a way, EVE then had much fewer safeties for newbies and clueless people than it has now.

@Lucas_Kell

What you want is to try to paint the game now as some hardcore experience

I don’t need to do that. CCP does it for me. They still market EVE as a hardcore, full loot, always on PVP game where you aren’t safe anywhere. If they stop advertising EVE like that, then I will get behind more safety measures for people … mostly because I will quit for real when it happens.

[Qia_Kare]

@Lucas_Kell

Absolutely. 100% could not agree more. I’d like this twice if I could. Hey, someone else like Ramonas post on my behalf.

Now you can’t say I’ve never done anything for you.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Daekarus_Prime

Finally, I’ve never stated that my question was deriving from any sort of grief/bad experience, I was just curious to know people’s opinions related to the hypothetical scenario I presented around a topic that I thought to be significant for new players.

Every time anyone raises this issue here, my response is that if they survived being a noob…why wouldn’t anyone else ?

There is a certain irony to people who clearly got past noobness, and thus proved it can be done, complaining in large numbers that things are too hard for noobs ! If you and I can manage it…why can’t anyone else ?

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Altara_Zemara

why can’t anyone else ?

Truth to be told: Not everyone is like you or Quake or me. Some people simply lack the necessary character traits to live in and find enjoyment in the kind of environment that EVE offers. It arguably requires quite a bit of effort and willpower not to get demoralized by a loss. Frankly, losses fester on my mind for a long time and I find the logistics of replacing a lost thing utterly frustrating.

However, the question is: What should change: The environment that was designed in a certain way to purport certain emotions and experience to accommodate players that do not want these emotions or experiences? Or the players towards the environment by accepting the specifically designed nature of the environment and whether they can really live and have fun in something that goes against what they want?

The environment has been changed a lot already to accommodate incompatible players to an extent. I think it’s time that the players change to accustom themselves to the environment again.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Dyver_Phycad

The psychology principle that enough buffer makes someone less likely to ragequit is bogus. If a person cannot deal with a loss, it will not be able to, regardless of the level of wealth they have.

Consider also the psychology of making life easier for noobs. Seemingly altruistic, but there’s a darker element that people may not even be aware of. The easier life is progressively made for noobs, the more the person ‘supporting’ the moves can boost their ego by feeling that they survived when things were harder. Make life sufficiently easy for noobs and you can ‘win’ Eve because it will never be that hard again. Sometimes I do wonder if this sort of attempt of people to close the gate behind them is the real cause…and the shining white nooby protector knight is all an illusion. Is all the ‘protect noobs’ really just gatekeeping.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Dyver_Phycad

Player numbers fall because of completely different reasons than ganking a single digit number of new players every day.

Again, CCP at the most recent fanfest stated there was a link between ganking and new player churn. If you have evidence that proves them wrong by all means present it.

@Dyver_Phycad

You lose me because I do not think that this is how players think. This is based on past experiences with EVE players. If they cannot bear a cheap loss, they are very likely not a personality that can bear a bigger loss, regardless of how much buffer wealth they have

How can you possibly know this? If they left because of a cheap loss, how can you possibly know how they would react had then not had that loss but had a loss much later?

The majority of MMOs soften new player losses specifically because players do think like that. Negative progress is far worse early on than it is later.

@Dyver_Phycad

That is not my logic. My logic is that you are a player that learned to play the game, learned to pay attention and be mindful of your surroundings.

But I came into the game during a time when ganking was pretty much non-existent for new players. I suffered no early losses that I didn’t directly instigate. If I started now and spent a couple of week grinding then lost everything then I’d chuck this game in the trash where it belongs, so by your logic if I lose anything now I should still ragequit. But I don’t. Why? Because I’m in a position to recover from significant losses now.

@Dyver_Phycad

Their research is not worth the energy to light up the digits on the screen that display it.

So I should ignore CCP stating what they are seeing in their data and believe some random pleb on the forum? What credentials can you offer that makes your word more worthwhile than CCPs word plus my own first hand experiences with new players?

@Dyver_Phycad

In a way, EVE then had much fewer safeties for newbies and clueless people than it has now.

It had fewer safeties but far fewer risks too. Early in my days I always used to see fleets of AFK iterons mining all day every day, no ganks because they weren’t worth it. Now though hunting newbies is pretty much a sport and you look at the systems between career hubs and you see kills pretty much every day where gankers are just hanging out there waiting for newbies to pass back and forth. Go look at systems between the Caldari career agents like Isanamo for example.

@Dyver_Phycad

don’t need to do that. CCP does it for me. They still market EVE as a hardcore, full loot, always on PVP game where you aren’t safe anywhere.

They do but anyone that’s played it knows that’s false. Once you get established it’s basically hello kitty in space. There aren’t many MMOs where it’s so insanely easy to be successful at whatever you choose to do. I think that’s what appeals to some people, this game requires very little actual skill, it just requires you to know about some mechanics.

@Dyver_Phycad

Truth to be told: Not everyone is like you or Quake or me. Some people simply lack the necessary character traits to live in and find enjoyment in the kind of environment that EVE offers. I

This is part of the above You’re not some elite ubergamer because you play EVE. You happened to not have too hard a time getting into the game and you enjoy playing it, that’s all. You’re not superior to someone who gets ganked early on and decides they can’t be bothered to repeat their progress.

@Altara_Zemara

The easier life is progressively made for noobs, the more the person ‘supporting’ the moves can boost their ego by feeling that they survived when things were harder.

Literally the opposite is true. The game was vastly more easy for newbies when I joined.

[Vokan_Narkar]

@Ferdiad_Silver

One thing that would happen is all the AFK miners chewing away at veldspar would descend upon these 1.0 systems so they can have their orcas earn them isk while they do their day jobs.

It is already happening btw. Not on that big scale fortunately and gankers do sometimes kill such Orcas even in 1.0, but it takes many resources and they are then even accused to breaking rules of no ganking in starter/career systems.

I am sure that this being already the case will be used as an argument why we should definitely do this nonsense that OP is promoting, but you are right, remove safety in 1.0 and these systems will be out of ore in hour after downtime…

[Lucas_Kell]

@Vokan_Narkar

remove safety in 1.0 and these systems will be out of ore in hour after downtime…

So why would that not be the case now? It takes significant firepower to bring down things like orcas in a 1.0 so why are they not already stipped every single day?

And if they were stripped every day, why should anyone care? The total amount of ore is tiny and would decrease because belts take multiple respawns to recover from being mined out. If you care about people mining loads you should be concerned with ice systems, particularly those with multiple spawns.

[Vokan_Narkar]

@Lucas_Kell

So why would that not be the case now? It takes significant firepower to bring down things like orcas in a 1.0 so why are they not already stipped every single day?

They actually are. But it takes a while as the amount of veterans mining in 1.0/0.9 in Orcas or with multiboxing fleet is not that high right now. Partially also because of the gankers, because many of those who did that in past lost their Orca or Mackinaw in these systems anyway so they realized that not even that makes them perfectly safe and stopped doing that. Second reason is that there is no plagioclase and the belts are quite on low volume compared to lower security status systems.

@Lucas_Kell

And if they were stripped every day, why should anyone care?

These players are denying the resources to those they “belong” to - new players who are supposed to mine for missions in these systems or who lives there as they are protected there, but not even 1jump outside of that system.

Anyone mining with a multiboxing fleet of barges/exhumers or Orcas is griefing new players.