#RememberRion
Thoughts and prayers for the little guy.
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If your baiting the ganker then the ganker is ganking himself. Thus your not ganking him your killing him for ganking you. It’s the act of ganking that is an immoral act not the act of killing.
unmate recheck and final mate.
I hope he turned away from the path the Bandit queen offed him and started an alt, so our job is done
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Wait, I thought ganking was part of the game , so if you use it on people who gank then why would they be upset.
All the talk is pointless , criminals will die at our hands by hook or by crook.
Now gankers dedicate two characters to fire at our bust pilot’s if they get close to the gank ball and people said we shouldn’t do that , or the ganker ALTs said we shouldn’t, 
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Eh? How so?
Exactly. The only upset people are sore losers who lose and cant take it.
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Edit: Wow, this turned into a wall of text. I don’t expect you to read it -especially since it’s more of me thinking out loud than making a clear point- but I wrote it, so I’m going to post it.
You can’t reason someone out of a belief that they didn’t reason themselves into. And, quite honestly, I have no desire to discuss this further with that guy. However, this did get me thinking…
I’m of the mind that if the devs put code in the game allowing players to do something, then that means that the devs intended players to do that. Thus, suicide ganking can’t be immoral because it’s the intended way to play the game. I look at it like tackling in American football. It would be wildly inappropriate to tackle people in the middle of a Piggly Wiggly, but it is acceptable and expected behavior when playing football. And if you don’t want to get tackled, you shouldn’t step on the grid iron.
That being said, the devs are, imho, not the final arbiters of how a game can and should be played. Case in point, look at sequence breaking in speedrunning. Devs have not only gone out of their way to prevent sequence breaking in many games, but some have even gone so far as to fix bugs that they knew that speedrunners were using. So, does that mean that players shouldn’t be allowed to sequence break? Does it mean that players have to play the way that the devs intended? I don’t know about you, but I think that’s a hard case to make. I believe that once a game is in players hands, they get to decide to play it however they see fit -whether that means, speedrunning with or without major glitches, sequence breaking, playing solo in an MMO, doing a solo run through a party based RPG, doing deathless runs, doing pacifist runs, doing no A-button runs in Super Mario 64, using the cheat console, making mechanic tweaks, texture packs, fan patches, restored content mods, total overhaul mods, and so on and so forth. I guess you could say that I ascribe to the “death of the developer” school of thought when it comes to playing video games (video on death of the author for those that want to know more).
So, end of discussion -right? Well, things get more complicated when it comes to online play, as one cheater/hacker/bot/greifer/whatever can ruin the game for multiple people (and if it’s bad enough, it can actually cause a decline in player population, and the game to die). Thus, I do believe that devs can and should do what they can to stop exploits, botting, cheating and all that good stuff in multiplayer games, in order to help ensure that every one can enjoy the game.
But that begs the question, what is an exploit or abuse? What should and shouldn’t be allowed -multiboxing, input broadcasting, ganking, camping, blobbing, neutral logi, bumping ships out of a POS shield? Not only are these questions that someone needs to answer, but the devs are also in a really good position to answer these questions. They have access to metrics that players don’t, tend to look at the bigger picture, rather than just their play style, have a lot of experience with game design, and, most importantly, they actually have the power to change the code. So does that mean that the devs should be the final arbiters when it comes to online games? Well, on one hand…
I once heard the community manager of Darkest Dungeon say in a GDC lecture that they were getting conflicting feedback from players. Some wanted frequent updates, while others wanted the game to stop changing. They dealt with this in two ways. First, they made some patches opt in. Second, they changed how they talked to the community. Instead of asking, “what do you want”, they started asking, “help us to achieve our vision for the game.” And this, I think, brings up a really interesting point. You see, in most forms of media, the creator(s) will achieve their creative vision before releasing a finished and immutable creation into the world (well, unless your George Lucas, Zach Snyder, or J.K. Rowling). And then it is up to audiences to enjoy them as they see fit (house rules, viewing order, fan edits, fan fics, fan art, etcetera). Games are different however, in that not only can they be changed, but in many cases, the audience expects them to be changed. In other words, a creative vision for many games becomes more of a journey than a destination. So, at what point does the players desire to play a game as they want take precedent over the artists creative vision? because there is no clear point where the work becomes “finished”, and gets handed over to fans. So, how do you apply death of the developer to a game that is still being actively developed? You can’t… or can you?
Unfortunately, I can’t find a source, but I remember once reading an article about a researcher that was studying human behavior in video games. Anyway, he decided to play a super hero game (maybe City of Heroes? can’t remember) that was designed for cooperative and competitive play. However, all the players played cooperatively whether they were “heroes” or “villains”. Anyway, he went around killing heroes because he was a supervillian, and all the other players, heroes and villains alike, thought he was a douche bag. So was he a douche bag, and what was the right way to play the game -as the devs intended, or as the players intended? And now, here’s were it really gets complicated -what happens when the community is split on how the game is supposed to be played? What if half want a PvP focused game, while the other half wants a PvE focused game. What about if the ratio is 60/40 or 80/20? And at what point does the creator’s artistic vision come into play?
I don’t think these are easy questions to answer… well, unless it comes to Eve, because Hilmar provided an answer which I find quite satisfying…
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God I love reading these pages and pages of philosophical ‘justification’ for ganking. Nobody ever just says ’ I’m bored and its fun '…there always has to be some lengthy diatribe that would give Nietzsche and Kafka apoplexy. It’s sort of like having the burglar give you a lecture on Marxist dialectic while he burgles your house, along with a ’ well it was YOUR fault you got burgled…I’m actually HELPING you but you just don’t realise it ’ as he wanders off out the front door with his bag of swag.
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That is so true , best post of the day
No ganker I ever encountered confessed to being bored as a reason to engage in PvP, Cilla. It is, of course, fun. Why else do it?
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Well, like I said, I didn’t really expect anyone to read that, but if you had actually read through the whole thing, you would have seen that the post was far more than a justification for ganking, and that it actually provided counterpoints to my initial argument.
@Sasha_Nemtsov I have frequently said, and probably in this thread no less, that I do gank for fun and profit.
Edit: here we go, first post of the thread. Of course, I have frequently heard gankers say they gank for fun. Are you sure you guys are arguing against what gankers actually say, or against your straw man version of the ganker?
Third, did it take a lot of practice to get that good at hand waving away arguments that don’t support your position?
You are so full of crap
You are completely unable to make a coherent point and back it up with facts.
You cannot support your position as to how ganking is unethical, attempting to undermine its defense with hyperbole and totally irrelevent comparisons to strawmanned situations that have never happened, which is just weak, bro.
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You view ganking new players as a form of bullying, and bullying is wrong. Is that it?
If it is:
- Don’t tell us, tell CCP: it’s their game.
- While you’re about it, ask CCP to give us a sure-fire way to
distinguish between a new player and a new character.
No, it’s nothing to do with wrongness or rightness. I’m all for ‘survival of the fittest’ in the Eve universe, and even in real life nature uses some pretty underhand tricks. But noobs in rl have the benefit of 4 billion years of evolution…whilst most new people in Eve haven’t a clue what’s going on.
The ‘morality’ or otherwise of a gang of 15 Tornadoes zonking some 2 day old noob in a Venture isn’t the point. The point is that the learning curve is already hard enough. You’ve only to visit Rookie Help to see that. That gank may make all the difference between someone who would otherwise make an excellent player ( and even end up as a ganker ) just deciding ‘stuff this…’ and moving on.
Well of course a gang of 15 experienced players in Catalysts or whatever who zonk a 2 day old noob in a Venture are going to tell themselves its all ‘ethical’. Anyone who does anything ‘justifies’ it…and of course there’s always ‘the devs allowed it so its OK’ fallback. Quite whether a loophole is ‘allowing’ something or ‘intended’ could have volumes of philosophical debate.
But do YOU feel happy doing it ? Is PvP play in nullsec really so boring that the most exciting thing to do in Eve is hanging around asteroid belts waiting to zonk some 2 day old noob in a Venture and make a staggering 1,683 ISK profit ?
I get all that…but a lot of the arguments ‘for’ ganking are circular reasoning.
For example, some claim that ganking encourages people to tank up, improve their ships, be more situationally aware…and so on. Sounds a good argument until you consider that ganking is itself the reason for having to do so. A chicken and egg situation.
Personally I’ve learned more about shields, using D-Scan, etc, etc as a result of the threat of ganking than I ever could have via any Eve manual. And I find that threat makes my mining run all the more exciting. When I move on to PvP combat in nullsec I will be far more ready for it…so thanks to the gankers. BUT…I only hold that stance because I survived my initial few days without having my ship demolished. And I thus think a good deal of the ‘noobs will handle it all just fine’ is retrospective and doesn’t really deal with what its actually like to be a clueless noob zonked by 15 Tornadoes.
Cilla, you’re working this whole thing rather hard. I’m more convinced now that what you’re railing against is a form of bullying - as you see it.
Something like - ‘The poor little noobs have a hard enough time as it is - leave them alone!’ Does that capture it?
Of course, you pad out your view by drawing our attention to the (unsupported) view that ganking new players is/must be driving them away from the game.
These new players choose to play a game in which they run the risk of being blapped, perhaps early in their virtual lives. But get this - Capsuleers are immortal! With time and effort, those new players can build their stock back up, and go on to do great things in the game.
Whether the game should be as it is can be discussed in the Thread you’re clearly anxious to initiate, with all the dialectical niceties observed.
Unlike the other Thread title (Is HIghsec Ganking Good for the Game?), this one does not invite a moral/ethical position, most of it being taken up with discussion of game mechanics, counters and, occasionally, good-natured banter.
Alright, a discussion! 
Okay, I disagree with the assertion that killing newbros is a bad thing…
First, I am of the opinion that it is better to learn hard lessons in cheap ships, than it is to learn hard lessons in expensive ships.
Second, I’ve heard it claimed that killing noobs can actually increase their retention. Now, I can’t speak for other new players, but I started play Eve because I heard it was a brutal PvP game full of scumbags. So, I was bored with the career agents and early game fapping about, and wasn’t sure if I would continue after the trial. Thus, getting ganked actually made me decide to stay because it confirmed to me that Eve was the game that I had heard it was and that I was looking for. So, I don’t know how many other players are like me, but I doubt I’m unique.
Third, it reveals the nature of Eve to players who don’t already know. Which can help them make a decision before they go spending any money. I’m of the firm opinion that some Eve commercials/trailers do not fully explain the competitive side of Eve, which can result in some new players being blindsided by it. Thus, I think it’s better they know what Eve is before they spend a bunch of time and money.
Fourth, some groups actually do recruiting by shooting. So, for the newbros that are looking for pew, it can actually be a way for them to get hooked up with a group that shares their interests.
Of course, this is not to say that I am okay with crushing newbros before they’ve had a chance to find their footing, but I’m unaware of any gankers that do that. In fact, this whole idea that gankers go after newbros seems like a straw man argument to me. True, new gankers will go after ventures when starting out, but they’ll quickly want to move on to more satisfying targets. I mean, I assume you were being hyperbolic with 15 tornados killing a venture, but I’m still willing to bet that you think that gankers intentionally prey on newbros a lot more than they actually do.
But I digress, I don’t believe that killing newbros is bad for them. In fact, I believe the inverse is true -that we would do them a disservice by coddling them.
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This has never, ever, happened. Not once.
So, as you are grossly misinformed, can you be intellectually honest enough to concede that you might not have any clue what you are talking about? Or will you continue to make irrational emotional claims, without any regard for reality?
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Misinformed ? Tell me…when I see groups of 10 on zkillboard take down a Procurer, you guys to like to brag about your exploits, can you tell me how much profit is made when the 49m ISK…erm…‘bounty’…is shared out ? Yeah, ganking is all about profit, right ? Right ?
I see lots of kills where the group is as high as 25…OK so they are not all Tornadoes but my gist is not incorrect.
Noobs don’t get ganked ? Oh, I must have hallucinated all those ’ I got ganked’ comments on Rookie Help.
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