Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Lucas_Kell]

@Altara_Zemara

Lucas : ‘I’m not saying it’s causation.’

Lucas : ’ I’m not saying there’s no causation.’

If you are not saying there is NO causation then clearly you are saying there IS causation,

Are you actually on crack? I literally explained this then you said “NOPE” then showed me that I was entirely correct in my explanation while quoting my explanation.

@Altara_Zemara

You aren’t by any chance this guy in your spare time ?..

The second part of what that guy is saying is different from what I said though, in a fairly significant way. I get that the English language isn’t a strength of yours but this is pretty basic syntax.

@Wadiest_Yong

I’m 100% certain that the bulk of the player drop has zero to do with ganking, and everything with changes to the game. Need citation ? How about the history of EvE Online…

You say “the history of EVE online” but then this is what I was pointing out. That while ganking has been around for pretty much ever, the current form of ganking where it’s pretty much a sport has only really been a thing for about a decade, and the playerbase has been shrinking for about a decade. So there is a correlation, just no data that shows whether there is or is not a causal link.

Now if you have data that proves it one way or another I’m more than happy to look at it, but until you can provide that I’m taking CCP at their word and their word is that it affects retention.

@Wadiest_Yong

I’ll go even further: the nonsense about “nerf ganking” is nothing but a distraction, and a constant flashpoint for people who are unwilling to accept a fundamental reality - if not a deliberate design choice - about this game.

And you’re absolutely welcome to that opinion. I happen to disagree. I think that historically ganking was used as a tool to indirectly fight over resources but that it got turned into nothing more than a way to “generate tears”, a playstyle where the end goal is to upset other players, and this is evidenced by the shift to pressing them for responses and continuing the abuse out of game.

I think that’s had a knock-on effect both in terms of causing new players to leave and putting off potential new players who don’t want to join a game just to be the target of abuse.

@Wadiest_Yong

Griefing is a different matter, and one where I would not want to blur the lines of what is and what is not griefing. Clarity is key, and only CCP can ever provide it for their product. But you were not discussing griefing either, rather a hybrid of ganking and griefing that only exists in that grey zone where so many forum warriors thrive.

I genuinely don’t think there is much of a line anymore. I think that for most gankers the primary goal is the outrage of the player behind their target, not any form of in-game result.

@Wadiest_Yong

Okay… does that mean an end to the posts, or a new rant ?

It means I’ll continue to push back against gankers until they cease to exist, regardless of how much abuse they sling, regardless of how many personal attacks they resort to.

@Altara_Zemara

Lucas now wants to pretend

Oh look, more wild misrepresentations from Altara. It’s almost like you have no actual points to make on the topic.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

I’m taking CCP at their word and their word is that it affects retention.

Oh I’m sure that hisec ganking affects a part of the retention. It rejects people not able to play the game, let alone evolve into a player sampling the entire (dark, unrelentless parts of the) game. This never was a game for everyone, and neither is chess. In fact it’s a niche game for players with a particular mindset. What is really going on is the “missed revenue”, of “so many people trying the game and almost all of them leave again within two weeks”. And that, as you know, points at two different objectives within the same company that are at odds with each other. Guess which one has the potential of running the game completely into the ground ?

@Lucas_Kell

I genuinely don’t think there is much of a line anymore. I think that for most gankers the primary goal is the outrage of the player behind their target, not any form of in-game result.

I happen to disagree with that. There is absolutely no difference between pvp in hisec and in nullsec for that matter. Both sectors will undoubtedly harbor some oddballs with that strange mindset. The best way, in my opinion at least, to deal with ganking is to not take it as a personal affront but as a factor in a game where nowhere is safe. Can’t deal with a PvP game where one has to learn about survival in an unforgiving way ? Find another one, leave before you get the urge to post nonsense on the forums (and I don’t mean you personally). The cats here catch mice where and when they can.

Don’t give in to this preconditioned reflex of helplessness.

@Lucas_Kell

It means I’ll continue to push back against gankers until they cease to exist, regardless of how much abuse they sling, regardless of how many personal attacks they resort to.

Sounds like a crusade… not a good thing.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

Are you actually on crack?

No…but I suspect I need to be to read your posts.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

In fact it’s a niche game for players with a particular mindset.

This is often stated and the majority of the time the people stating it claim it’s people with their mindset, but in reality the game has always been pretty broad, that’s the nature of a sandbox. The problem is that they’ve allowed a handful of groups to define “what EVE is” and those groups have got out of control. Sov null alliances are another sizable example of this.

@Wadiest_Yong

Guess which one has the potential of running the game completely into the ground ?

I’m pretty sure the one jamming microtransactions into everything is the one running it into the ground.

@Wadiest_Yong

I happen to disagree with that. There is absolutely no difference between pvp in hisec and in nullsec for that matter.

There’s crossover sure but no I think there are massive differences between PvP in null and ganking. Don’t get me wrong, I think originally there was a heck of a lot more crossover between regular PvP and ganking, but ganking has increasingly been taken over by people deliberately farming player reactions and using tactics designed to provoke an emotional response.

Much like Erotica1, where the aim shifted from in-game rewards to generating emotional outrage and laughing about it with his mates, ganking has done the same. They farm outrage so they can laugh at it.

@Wadiest_Yong

Can’t deal with a PvP game where one has to learn about survival in an unforgiving way ? Find another one,

They do, hence ganking affecting retention.

@Wadiest_Yong

leave before you get the urge to post nonsense on the forums

It’s not “nonsense” just because you disagree with it. Their views on the game are just as valid as yours.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Wadiest_Yong

What is really going on is the “missed revenue”, of “so many people trying the game and almost all of them leave again within two weeks”. And that, as you know, points at two different objectives within the same company that are at odds with each other.

The worst thing a company can do is try to be niche AND try to please what seems to be the majority…and end up cheesing off both vets and noobs with a dumbed down version. The notion that noobs appreciate the game being made easier for them is simply not true. The portion of noobs who want a game made easier for them is much smaller than the portion who will object and want the game kept hard. Early lessons with Counterstrike exemplified that. Chasing the ‘I want the game easier’ crowd is a recipe for disaster. Take note, CCP.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Altara_Zemara

The portion of noobs who want a game made easier for them is much smaller than the portion who will object and want the game kept hard

What data do you have to show this?

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

The problem is that they’ve allowed a handful of groups to define “what EVE is” and those groups have got out of control.

That is simply not true, especially in highsec. Aiko’s dominion, for example, extends over a handful of systems that Safety frequent often. Sure, they go on longer trips sometimes and I’ve even seen them down at Amarr…but in general their dominion extends a few systems from Uedama, and is not even absolute in those areas. There are vast areas of Eve highsec where you see Safety once in a blue moon. In fact there are large areas where a person can mine in relative safety all day and even the other culprits like Riot and CODE seldom visit. So much for ganking being out of control !

You’d know that if you ever actually logged in or travelled extensively.

[Altara_Zemara]

@Lucas_Kell

What data do you have to show this?

Feel free to read the history of games such as Counterstrike.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

The problem is that they’ve allowed a handful of groups to define “what EVE is” and those groups have got out of control

I am confident that a good game designer would or will address anything that has gotten out of control, as in griefing - which is a very different thing compared to hisec pvp referred to as ganking. It’s not the Aiko’s and the James’s and the Adrians who define hisec reality, for instance. That’s (hopefully) not what is being discussed here.

@Lucas_Kell

Sov null alliances are another sizable example of this.

They come in many flavors. As an example, some resort to another form of soft extorsion called “rent”. Some don’t. Since sovereignty, the key part of nullsec gameplay, requires numbers, it’s only normal that alliances exist. Also for their day to day activities, like income generation, there is safety in numbers and organization. You know that, you’ve lived there. Not sure what point or connection you were trying to make.

@Lucas_Kell

I’m pretty sure the one jamming microtransactions into everything is the one running it into the ground

Pretty close. If you lived nearby I’d come over and give you a box of cigars

@Lucas_Kell

Much like Erotica1

Ouch, that is a very very different story, starting with a funny scam but ending with griefing. It also had nothing to do with pvp or ganking.

@Lucas_Kell

They do, hence ganking affecting retention.

Wheat and chaff. I know it sounds tough, but I think this game deserves preservation. The game selects its players, not vice versa.

@Lucas_Kell

It’s not “nonsense” just because you disagree with it. Their views on the game are just as valid as yours.

Nah, views don’t matter if they start by denying reality. It’s just a token of entitlement. I started this game when its reputation was long settled, with wardecs all over hisec, no safety settings, concordokken still a thing, and the rest of the tough aspects. Somehow I settled into a mindset of “okay, let’s see if this thing can beat me”. And the rest is, as they say, history.

[Codename_Razorback]

@Altara_Zemara

Feel free to read the history of

The World®

[Lucas_Kell]

@Altara_Zemara

That is simply not true, especially in highsec. Aiko’s dominion, for example, extends over a handful of systems that Safety frequent often.

It has nothing do with what system one crappy player hangs out in, it’s to do with CCP historically allowing certain players to drive the narrative about what the game is to the detriment of everyone else, and it’s mostly null groups and their offshoots, of which ganking is one.

Contrary to what you’ve been told, ganking was not always like is it now. The chances of you getting ganked in a worthless ship were basically nil. Ganking used to be a way to attack operations in highsec and to generate income. Now the vast majority is ganking is designed to test the line of griefing, to find ways to make targets respond and to wind them up enough to make their responses angry so they can be mocked. It’s why they go after streamers a lot too, because it’s easy to record the reactions in real time.

@Altara_Zemara

You’d know that if you ever actually logged in or travelled extensively.

I guarantee I log on and travel more that you. I get that you logged on one time and got told some stuff by Aiko but you’re not an expert. You’re not even a competent amateur, you’re barely more than a poorly trained alt. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t know the first thing about the vast majority of EVE so excuse me if I don’t take you seriously when you try to explain EVE to me.

@Altara_Zemara

Feel free to read the history of games such as Counterstrike.

So no data then. Even if data from other games was relevant, which it’s not, you can’t really compare a game like counterstrike since counterstrike is pure combat PvP game with EVE is a sandbox game with a heavy mix of PvE and PvP content - with PvP covering vastly more than just “pew pew”.

@Wadiest_Yong

I am confident that a good game designer would or will address anything that has gotten out of control, as in griefing

Right, but this is CCP and it has got out of control and nothing has been done. CCP won’t do anything until some poor kid offs himself after being harassed in one of the ganker channels. Then much like with Erotica1 they’ll suddenly care about psychologically torturing other players.

@Wadiest_Yong

You know that, you’ve lived there. Not sure what point or connection you were trying to make.

The point I was making is that sov null groups built up enough power with the developers to convince them that what nullsec wants is the definition of EVE, which is why null groups have repeatedly been handed advantages at the detriment of the rest of the game. Citadels even allowed these groups to start profiting off of highsec and when highsec groups put up towers with zero taxes to compete with null towers like TTT, null groups had CCP change the game to add a minimum fee so they could no longer be undercut.

A lot of gankers come from teh same group and they’ve manage to push this narrative that being blown up anywhere is the core of EVE, but historically that was not the case. So claims that everyone who thinks ganking should nerfed are somehow ruining the core design of EVE are baseless.

@Wadiest_Yong

Ouch, that is a very very different story, starting with a funny scam but ending with griefing. It also had nothing to do with pvp or ganking.

It’s exactly the same. Ganking started out as an in-game thing done for in-game reaons and in-game rewards. Then they realised they can start sending mails, badgering them in local and inviting them to channels to get reactions out of them which they then collated and published. Over time the in-game reasons have mostly vanished and ganking is now predominantly done to generate those reactions.

@Wadiest_Yong

Wheat and chaff. I know it sounds tough, but I think this game deserves preservation. The game selects its players, not vice versa.

It doesn’t sound tough, it sounds arrogant and ignorant. It sounds like you’ve decided that what you like about the game is what needs to be preserved, even though to those of us who arrived here in the early days (I started in 2005) it’s not a core part of the game. There’s no real difference between you and someone who wants their PvE playstyles protected other than you’re arrogant enough to think the playstyle you like is the core of the game.

Amusingly one of the big USPs of EVE right from the start was a player-driven economy with limited developer intervention and you don’t seem to have any issues with them repeatedly shitting all over that. I guess not everything needs to be preserved, eh?

@Wadiest_Yong

I started this game when its reputation was long settled, with wardecs all over hisec, no safety settings, concordokken still a thing, and the rest of the tough aspects.

When did you join? The 2010-2012 cohort with the majority of the current gankers who claim the game must not be changed except if it benefits them?

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

The point I was making is that sov null groups built up enough power with the developers to convince them that what nullsec wants is the definition of EVE… etc

That’s a fair point, but up to a point. Some of what you are stating was not because of any particular wishes of certain nullsec groups but rather emergent gameplay - unforeseen by CCP or even ignored when they were warned by the same nullsec groups that the danger existed and how it would be used. That’s what you get when 400 or so game guardians are up against thousands of bright players.

@Lucas_Kell

Ganking started out as an in-game thing done for in-game reaons and in-game rewards.

Okay, let’s bring back player bounties then. I always thought of removing them as a huge mistake (and false reasons), with the pinnacle being to first make rookies exempt of player bounties (poor kids couldn’t handle the “Wanted” sign on their pics, apparently, oh dear oh dear, just like some fortnite players can’t handle their losses eh ?).

Now that we’re on that point, perhaps it would be wiser to consider the removal of at least some of the mollycoddling and the safety lines that were introduced.

@Lucas_Kell

It doesn’t sound tough, it sounds arrogant and ignorant.

And here I had hopes of actually having a decent conversation/debate with you. Alas, we reached the apparently inevitable divide again. My view on EvE is very straightforward, and the one I embraced and loved all these years: EvE is Darwinian in nature, it’s a survival of the fittest game. One can handle it, or one can’t. I can’t handle an FPS, but I wouldn’t call the typical FPS player macho, arrogant or ignorant.

@Lucas_Kell

Amusingly one of the big USPs of EVE right from the start was a player-driven economy with limited developer intervention and you don’t seem to have any issues with them repeatedly shitting all over that. I guess not everything needs to be preserved, eh?

I haven’t said a word about the economy in this thread. I’ve said plenty about it when the changes were rolled out, and none of it was CCP-friendly. Don’t look for opponents on your own side of the fence, Lucas. Just saying. Take a breath, not everyone with a view differing from yours has to be your enemy. Only if you insist.

P.S. As a single account guy I can say in all honesty and transparency I never ganked in hisec, despite me joining with the apparently bad cohort of 2011

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

Okay, let’s bring back player bounties then. I always thought of removing them as a huge mistake (and false reasons),

Sure, I have zero issues with this.

@Wadiest_Yong

Now that we’re on that point, perhaps it would be wiser to consider the removal of at least some of the mollycoddling and the safety lines that were introduced.

Sure. Contrary to popular believe I have no issue with reducing safety as a general rule. I didn’t even historically have a problem with ganking until it got turned into a sport built around griefing players. Even in this thread I’ve suggested just limiting ganking to larger, higher classes of ships, even if that means putting cargo value limits on the protected ships.

@Wadiest_Yong

And here I had hopes of actually having a decent conversation/debate with you.

I don’t see why that stops it. It’s not an attack it genuinely sounds arrogant and ignorant.

@Wadiest_Yong

My view on EvE is very straightforward, and the one I embraced and loved all these years: EvE is Darwinian in nature, it’s a survival of the fittest game.

And that’s fine, but it’s still your view. It’s not automatically the objective reality of EVE simply because it’s the view you’ve chosen.

@Wadiest_Yong

Don’t look for opponents on your own side of the fence, Lucas. Just saying.

I’m not, I just genuinely don’t remember seeing you kick up even a fraction of the fuss you kick up in ganking threads when CCP gutted actual core elements of EVE.

@Wadiest_Yong

As a single account guy I can say in all honesty and transparency I never ganked in hisec, despite me joining with the apparently bad cohort of 2011

Ill take your word for it. And as for the cohort, while obviously not everyone is going to be the same, there definitely is a strong correlation between players who started 2010-2012 and the aggressively rigid views on ganking from people who like to “collect tears”.

It’s something I noted a few years back on here, and I’ve never quite managed to nail down what caused it but my feeling is that either there was a particular marketing campaign around things that were attractive to griefers or some other game closed down and kicked a bunch of people over here.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Lucas_Kell

What data do you have to show this?

Speaking of,

I requested earlier some info from you. You stated that it’s somewhere in this threadnaught. I’ve gone back about 1000 posts and haven’t found the links.

Could you kindly link for me the update statements for CCP that support your position that ganking is killing the game. I’m very curious to read this.

Thanks.

[Uriel_the_Flame]

@Ax_l_Thorne

I’ve gone back about 1000 posts and haven’t found the links.

I think he might have rick rolled you.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Ax_l_Thorne

Could you kindly link for me the update statements for CCP that support your position that ganking is killing the game.

I’ve already linked to the fanfest presentation and the blog posts about ganking multiple times in this thread, though I’m pretty sure I haven’t said the words “killing the game”.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

And that’s fine, but it’s still your view. It’s not automatically the objective reality of EVE simply because it’s the view you’ve chosen.

Right. It is how I experience the game. And it’s a prevalent experience among the people I play with (including those in hisec). And if I dig long and hard enough, it’s probably possible to find quotes from the original designers in that sense too. And it’s definitely my wish that the game doesn’t deteriorate into something that is less than tough, demanding and relentless (or elitist as some would have us believe).

@Lucas_Kell

I’m not, I just genuinely don’t remember seeing you kick up even a fraction of the fuss you kick up in ganking threads when CCP gutted actual core elements of EVE.

A fuss ? Moi ? Admit it keeps you somewhat entertained. And when ccp ever dreams of touching stealth bombers in ways they don’t want to be touched, I’ll be there dropping extra ammo, LOL.

@Lucas_Kell

Contrary to popular believe I have no issue with reducing safety as a general rule. I didn’t even historically have a problem with ganking until it got turned into a sport

(I left out “around griefing players” in the quote because I disagree with that part)
Let’s say for instance that you are right, that that is what it turned into. The question then is "why did it turn into that type of ‘sport’. Could it be that perhaps that too is emergent gameplay caused by changes introduced to core gameplay elements by ccp ? What if those changes were reconsidered ? What if the reasons for those changes don’t hold up in hindsight ? Murphy’s law implies that when one iterates on a faulty system, the problems only get worse, right ?

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

And it’s definitely my wish that the game doesn’t deteriorate into something that is less than tough, demanding and relentless

It’s already “less than tough, demanding and relentless”. EVE is not a hard game and never has been.

@Wadiest_Yong

The question then is "why did it turn into that type of ‘sport’.

Because players who thrive on griefing others but get banned from other games realised they don’t get banned for it here as long as they disguise it as gameplay. And they’ve repeatedly skirted the line with several people getting banned along the way.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

EVE is not a hard game and never has been.

So, as an example, the players who lose all they have when their cheap and ill chosen hauler gets blown up are all faking it ? Okay…
(I know you claim EvE was never a tough game. I find that claim funny. Perhaps you forgot your own start in EvE, your first bigger goals you tried to achieve. Whatever, it’s your opinion, you’re welcome to it).

@Lucas_Kell

Because players who thrive on griefing others but get banned from other games

Griefing is not allowed in EvE, never was. You mistake all ganking for griefing, and perhaps underestimate the level of roughness that is allowed in EvE as opposed to other games. As an other example, scamming (without exploits) is also allowed. But it may take another 4000 posts and lots of funny mushrooms before that finally starts sinking in.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve already linked to the fanfest presentation and the blog posts about ganking multiple times

I’ve gone back about 1000 posts so far and have been unable to locate it.

Kindly re-link it please.