Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

So, as an example, the players who lose all they have when their cheap and ill chosen hauler gets blown up are all faking it ?

But that’s not the game being hard, that’s just losses mattering early on.

@Wadiest_Yong

I know you claim EvE was never a tough game. I find that claim funny. Perhaps you forgot your own start in EvE, your first bigger goals you tried to achieve.

I didn’t forget anything, it was just never a challenge. Admittedly I was already a veteran gamer and played multiple games competitively, but the hardest part about EVE is and has always been an unintuitive UX. As soon as you get past that the actual game loop is pretty easy. Once you start building up as well it rapidly becomes difficult to lose enough for it to actually matter unless you’re actively trying to lose stuff.

Is there a reason you use a lowercase ‘v’ btw?

@Wadiest_Yong

Griefing is not allowed in EvE, never was. You mistake all ganking for griefing, and perhaps underestimate the level of roughness that is allowed in EvE as opposed to other games.

Yes it is. I’m not mistaking anything. When you attack another player and your intention is to get an negative emotional reaction from that player so you can laugh about it with your mates, that is griefing. And that’s what most of ganking is built around. It’s not exactly hidden that they are “harvesting tears”.

@Wadiest_Yong

As an other example, scamming (without exploits) is also allowed.

Sure, and when Erotica1 departed from scamming for rewards and started doing it to get emotional reactions CCP banned him. Gankers still do the same thing, they just don’t push it quite as far most of the time so they walk on the very edge of the EULA.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

When you attack another player and your intention is to

… sell mining permits, it’s not griefing, it’s roleplay.

Unless you have some sort of a study done on the “intentions” of gankers in hisec, we’ll just ignore that statement.

On the other hand, I can imagine that gratuitous salt and tears can be an extra bonus.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

sell mining permits, it’s not griefing, it’s roleplay.

Oh yes, just like Erotica1 was just “running a bonus room”. This is exatly the type of thing I mean when I say “they disguise it as gameplay”. If all they are doing is selling mining permits, why has their website always been a showcase of the most negative reactions they’ve managed to goad out of people?

[Wadiest_Yong]

Ask Aiko, who is in a better position to answer that than I will ever be. And please stop stretching the subject to include Erotica1 - that’s just silly. This is a thread about ganking.

[Lucas_Kell]

You’re being disingenuous. We all know why, we all know that their aim was to generate these responses.

The comparison with Erotica1 is spot on though. It was a player seeking to upset other players covering it up by claiming gameplay reasons. You only don’t like it because it shatters the idea that claiming something is gameplay automatically stops it being griefiig.

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Wadiest_Yong

Could it be that perhaps that too is emergent gameplay caused by changes introduced to core gameplay elements by ccp ?

There is more than the ring of truth to this position, Wadiest, if you substitute for ‘griefing’, ‘ganking’.

It was ganking itself which underwent change, in response to attempts by CCP to rein-in what was presented to it by some players as, basically, wholesale slaughter (which it has never been).

Each time a nerf to ganking was deployed, we pushed back in an effort to preserve the playstyle, whilst at the same time operating within the new parameters.

It was James 315 who organised the activity within Highsec at that time, drawing together previously disparate groups and solo players into a loose and broad-based coalition with shared objectives and interests.

He wrote a daily blog, Minerbumping, which drew and entertained many of his supporters (and not a few of the other sort…).

As far as Highsec is concerned, his achievement has been unparalleled. He started out as a lone capsuleer bumping miners in Arvasarus, in order to sell them Permits at 10 Mil a pop, and ended up fronting a huge organisation, known throughout New Eden. The nay-saying scallywags of our Official Opposition will struggle to achieve anything remotely as successful.

(He also gave me my first break as a Voice Actor - which eventually became a RL job - Ta’, James!)

So yes, emergent ganking gameplay has always been a response to a situation presented to the ganker, and quite beyond his control.

That so many of us have continued in spite of the nerfs and the hysterical, hyperbolic opposition sometimes seen on these boards is surely the best testament to our resolute and optimistic natures.

We are EVE.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve already linked to the fanfest presentation and the blog posts about ganking multiple times in this thread,

@Ax_l_Thorne

I’ve gone back about 1000 posts so far and have been unable to locate it.

Kindly re-link it please.

Then a bunch of posts with other people.

I know you got a lot of irons in the fire, with multiple convos going.

Could you do me a solid and please re-link the fanfest presentation from CCP. I’m very curious to watch it, and I have been unable to locate in this massive thread of over 8000 posts.

Kindly, thank you.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Ax_l_Thorne

Could you do me a solid and please re-link the fanfest presentation from CCP. I’m very curious to watch it, and I have been unable to locate in this massive thread of over 8000 posts.

Sure, here. Sorry I missed your last post.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

As far as Highsec is concerned, his achievement has been unparalleled

Only to gankers. Realistically he was a loser that harassed new players and made a blog with responses he’d baited them into.

[Ax_l_Thorne]

Thanks!

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Lucas_Kell

@Sasha_Nemtsov

As far as Highsec is concerned, his achievement has been unparalleled

Only to gankers.

Name any other Highsec-dwelling capsuleer who has grown a similarly large organisation around a single playstyle, and which is known throughout New Eden.

His legacy is certainly respected mainly by gankers, but - personality aside - surely, not even you can deny that he built that legacy with hard work and commitment?

[Lucas_Kell]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

Name any other Highsec-dwelling capsuleer who has grown a similarly large organisation around a single playstyle, and which is known throughout New Eden.

Why bother? I could name people like Tora Bushido but I’m sure you’d come up with some reason they don’t count because ultimately you’re always going to push the narrative that code is somehow relevant.

I’d definitely argue that @Mike_Azariah smashes through James 315, because while he didn’t build “a similarly large organisation” he did get elected to the CSM multiple times as a highsec player, without being part of any massive alliances. That to me suggests a level of respect from the playerbase that James couldn’t hope to achieve.

Hell, even Gevlon outperformed James, and that guy was an idiot.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

His legacy is certainly respected mainly by gankers, but - personality aside - surely, not even you can deny that he built that legacy with hard work and commitment?

I absolutely can deny that. He harassed some players built a bunch of alt accounts then encourage a relatively small but relatively loud group of people to join up and repeat his phrases. Even that he only really managed to achieve though connections with goons.

@Gix_Firebrand

I’m over here straight laughing at you bro.

OK. Laugh away. vOv

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

You’re being disingenuous. We all know why, we all know that their aim was to generate these responses.

Not really, it was added content to a lucrative business of selling permits, and the fun of killing those who refused to pay. So if one strikes gold (salt and tears), why not make use of it.

And to repeat it for the third and final time in today’s exchange, I fully acknowledge the existence of real griefing in EvE. There’s nothing disingenuous about that. But we’re worlds apart in our respective ideas of what is griefing. I don’t follow your lead on that one, that’s for sure. Even that is not important. It shouldn’t even capture your attention.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

I absolutely can deny that. He harassed some players built a bunch of alt accounts then encourage a relatively small but relatively loud group of people to join up and repeat his phrases. Even that he only really managed to achieve though connections with goons.

LOL, the haterade is so strong

@Lucas_Kell

Tora Bushido

Who?

@Lucas_Kell

Gevlon

Who?

Ahh mercs who reigned apparently while I was on EVE break. Guess they aren’t that famous huh?

@Lucas_Kell

I’d definitely argue that @Mike_Azariah

I agree MIke is a good guy. Never seen him in game tho.

@Lucas_Kell

OK. Laugh away.

Oh, I am

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

Not really, it was added content to a lucrative business of selling permits

That’s some real selective memory you’ve got going on. The whole concept was built around getting the responses, the demand for payment was part of that strategy.

@Wadiest_Yong

But we’re worlds apart in our respective ideas of what is griefing.

Of course we are, because you don’t think that deliberately trying to wind up the actual player and get them so riled up the y produce angry content you can laugh about with your mates is griefing.

My general rule is that if you are targeting the emotions of the player and trying to create a negative response and you aren’t just targeting the character within the bounds of the game, that’s griefing.

@Gix_Firebrand

Who?

Thanks for proving my point. The only people following James around are zealots who have no real connection with the actual game.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

Thanks for proving my point. The only people following James around are zealots who have no real connection with the actual game.

My youth, all you demonstrated is the people you named aren’t that famous.

Also if you could read, you’d see that by then I’d already left EVE. I stopped playing back in 14 Then I came back recently

A quick google search revealed some merc activity. Seems pretty standard stuff. I also gather they don’t play anymore due to the war dec changes.

They don’t seem that famous to me brosef. It seems like they are mostly ridiculed as well, esp according to that reddit thread about Tora.

It also reveals the last time you were active was probably around those times

Sorry bruv, I know you’re jealous and it hurts you.

You need a hug or

[Codename_Razorback]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

a similarly large organisation

@Lucas_Kell

a relatively small but relatively loud group of people

+1

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Lucas_Kell

I could name people like Tora Bushido

One of the Greats, to be sure, Lucas.

@Lucas_Kell

I’d definitely argue that @Mike_Azariah smashes through James 315

You’re comparing apples with oranges, Lucas. Mike’s efforts - worthy though they may be - are not directly an example of playing EVE.

I did say ‘personality aside’.

Gevlon was a member of the CODE. Alliance (albeit briefly), so even he was drawn to James’ Institution.

Remember, I invited you specifically to consider Highsec-dwelling capsuleers who had founded a major organisation based around a single (EVE) playstyle.

You have not done so because you cannot do so without imposing upon the terms I’ve used your own, newly minted interpretation. So, rather than say, ‘Yes, given those terms, you are correct’, you prevaricate.

James 315 published The Code (or officially began his reign) in June 2012. His legacy is still going strong in 2022, under Princess @Aiko_Danuja.

I salute them both!

[Gix_Firebrand]

ROFL.

Its ok bro. We get you’re jealous and sad.

Do you need a hug or

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

because you don’t think that deliberately trying to wind up the actual player and get them so riled up the y produce angry content you can laugh about with your mates is griefing.

correct, I do not think that that is the intent. I don’t think the average ganker is malicious. If that makes me naive, I can live with that. Ganking in hisec is just targeting what you can find, with some isk value in return, and with the calculated cost of losing ships to concord. Sometimes the ganker gets the extra salty bonus, a sign of a player who’s out of his depth, or just being a sore, immature loser. Wanna make more out of it ? That’s your prerogative, but not necessarily the truth.

I’m sure the rabbits, if given a vote, would love to eradicate all the foxes.

@Lucas_Kell

so riled up the y produce angry content you can laugh about with your mates is griefing.

so, players who do not produce angry content (salt, tears, insults, funny threats, etc) are not being griefed, that is the direct consequence of your own statement. In other words, it’s the socalled victims who turn this into griefing, not the attackers. That may sound awkward, but do cogitate this for a while, and you will see the sun shining through the clouds. Nerf salt spewing, ban it from local, and most of the griefing would be … gone ? See, solutions do present themselves. As if most of the socalled griefing isn’t assuming a role of “victim” in the first place, at the expense of real victims of real griefing.

[Qia_Kare]

I have a hard time imagining Sasha ‘griefing’ me, or anybody else. Guybertini would come to kill me here or there, but was never anything but a gentleman in chat. I can expect that either one might shoot me if they find me, but they’re not going to harass me or try to inflict emotional pain.

I don’t doubt that people do feel pain or anger from a loss of that sort, but that’s a reflection of a lack of maturity or self control, not an intention on the part of others to inflict that grief when we all signed up for a PvP game.

I’m fine with being a rabbit and leaving the foxes to do whatever it is that they do. I’m just not going to make their hunt an easy one if I can help it.