Nerf Ganking Megathread

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Wadiest_Yong

I don’t think the average ganker is malicious.

You’re right, Wadiest, although I don’t have the data to support my assertion. (At least I’m honest about it…)

Some folks are compelled to paint us all as bad/weak/unhealthy, because without that opinion to bolster their position, they appear to have nothing to say. We must be bad in order for them to feel good.

A psychoanalyst said that in we humans, feeling always occurs first, followed by thinking. It’s quite useful to remember because there are those for whom the ‘thinking’ part doesn’t actually happen, or if it does, it is so shackled to the overwhelming feeling that truly independent and objective evaluation becomes impossible.

I know this because I’ve bought software when (on reflection) I clearly should not have done so.

[Lucas_Kell]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

You’re comparing apples with oranges, Lucas.

Shocker. “Doesn’t count because :reasons:”

@Sasha_Nemtsov

Remember, I invited you specifically to consider Highsec-dwelling capsuleers who had founded a major organisation based around a single (EVE) playstyle.

Yes, I do remember that you picked specific criteria designed to allow you to wiggle out of pretty much any name you were given. Consider James was a goon though even he doesn’t fit your criteria.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

His legacy is still going strong in 2022,

Again, for the very small but very loud group of gankers and their multiple alts.

@Wadiest_Yong

I do not think that that is the intent. I don’t think the average ganker is malicious.

Then you’re ither delusional or a liar, which is it? Even right from the early days of the code blog it was all about “tears of the day” and such.

@Wadiest_Yong

Ganking in hisec is just targeting what you can find, with some isk value in return, and with the calculated cost of losing ships to concord.

If it were that, I’d have far less of an issue with it, but that’s not what it is. The majority of ganks are unprofitable.

@Qia_Kare

but that’s a reflection of a lack of maturity or self control,

This is a videogame, many of the people playing it do lack maturity - because they are actual children.

@Qia_Kare

not an intention on the part of others to inflict that grief when we all signed up for a PvP game

Except that the intention literally is to inflict grief. That’s why it’s not just PvP. PvP would be “Blow up ship, move on to next target”. PvP is not “blow up ship, send multiple eve-mails, invite to chat, repeatedly make statements designed to provoke a negative response, post mocking blog entry about that response on the internet”.

[Qia_Kare]

My anecdotal experience is that when someone killed me they’d either offer a ‘gf’ and leave it at that, give me tips in a mail or in chat on how not to be a victim next time, or pay me ISK/give me a replacement ship by way of apology. All these options hinge on my being a good sport, though, I would imagine.

Not saying there aren’t bad actors out there, but none with whom I’ve ever personally had to deal with in all my time playing.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

Then you’re ither delusional or a liar, which is it

What ? No other options ? No balanced, moderate viewpoint ? Nothing extreme enough ? LOL. I guess any progress we made over the last week has been reverted to naught. Sad bunny, or maybe not. After all, whether on the forums or in New Eden, almost every player here is a completely anonymous entity - as he/she should be.

@Lucas_Kell

The majority of ganks are unprofitable.

ISK value has no relation to griefing, or even ganking. They are legit targets, thus can be killed.

Should the rest of us assume that you are talking from a wide experience and direct involvement of anything related to griefing and ganking ? Hmmm , citation needed.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

Some folks are compelled to paint us all as bad/weak/unhealthy, because without that opinion to bolster their position, they appear to have nothing to say. We must be bad in order for them to feel good.

Yep. They also seem to be unaware of what game they are playing LOL.

@Lucas_Kell

Again, for the very small but very loud group of gankers and their multiple alts.

LOL. You just can’t factor in that most people aren’t actually people’s alts huh?

@Lucas_Kell

Then you’re ither delusional or a liar, which is it? Even right from the early days of the code blog it was all about “tears of the day” and such.

LOL I find its mostly the bears who are terrible people. I mean Drac taught a homophobe how to evade moderation. I don’t see any gankers doing that.

@Lucas_Kell

This is a videogame, many of the people playing it do lack maturity - because they are actual children.

ROFL. You got any proof of that? I highly doubt that there are many children playing EVE. I thought they all played Fortnite? Which is it ROFL.

@Lucas_Kell

Except that the intention literally is to inflict grief. That’s why it’s not just PvP. PvP would be “Blow up ship, move on to next target”. PvP is not “blow up ship, send multiple eve-mails, invite to chat, repeatedly make statements designed to provoke a negative response, post mocking blog entry about that response on the internet”.

I dunno mate, that’s been happening for a lot of PvP for forever. Do you even internet or

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Lucas_Kell

you picked specific criteria

I did, and it’s a good thing that I did! Even given those criteria, you should have been able to come up with something to equal James’ achievements, if your view was correct.

That you could not do so - and that you could not honestly admit that you could not do so - betrays the mind of a man who must win an argument at any cost, even at the cost of honesty, truth.

@Lucas_Kell

Consider James was a goon though even he doesn’t fit your criteria.

James was indeed a Goon. He came to Highsec to seek his fortune, and succeeded. He was not a Goon in Highsec. Your point?

@Lucas_Kell

the very small but very loud group of gankers and their multiple alts.

All Corps/Alliances contain members and their alts. Safety. and CODE. are/were not alone in this. As for their being ‘small but very loud’ - why not?

@Lucas_Kell

from the early days of the code blog it was all about “tears of the day”

There was never a regular Minerbumping slot entitled ‘Tears of the Day’. There were:
Kills of the Week
Highsec Miner Grab Bag

As for

@Lucas_Kell

@Sasha_Nemtsov

You’re comparing apples with oranges, Lucas.

Shocker. “Doesn’t count because :reasons:”

Mike would surely agree that he is not in the same company as Tora, James, and Gevlon. Hence, to compare him with players like those is indeed like comparing apples with oranges - they are completely different, though players (fruits) nevertheless.

I invite you to set aside your prejudices for a moment and to consider what I am writing, not just gobble it up and say the first thing that comes into your head. You are capable of better, Lucas.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

That you could not do so - and that you could not honestly admit that you could not do so - betrays the mind of a man who must win an argument at any cost, even at the cost of honesty, truth.

Yep. Hence why he can’t admit the impact Fortnite has currently had on almost all genres of games LOL.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

I invite you to set aside your prejudices for a moment and to consider what I am writing, not just gobble it up and say the first thing that comes into your head. You are capable of better, Lucas.

You’re a saint for this but I don’t think he is LOL.

[Wadiest_Yong]

The never ending story…

[Lucas_Kell]

Yeah well that’s certainly not always the experience. They’ll certainly be looking for indicators that someone is ripe for baiting into an emotional response.

@Wadiest_Yong

What ? No other options ? No balanced, moderate viewpoint ?

Nope. None. I’m sure that at one point your claim was true because ganking historically wasn’t about “harvesting tears” but now that’s what the majority of ganking is about. Oh there you go, there is a third option, maybe your views are just outdated.

@Wadiest_Yong

I guess any progress we made over the last week has been reverted to naught.

You are certainly welcome to feel that way. From my perspective we only “make progress” if I say things you like to hear. The moment I have a strong opinion you disagree with then we’re back to square one. In all honesty though, I’m not seeking your approval so it really doesn’t matter a whole lot.

@Wadiest_Yong

ISK value has no relation to griefing, or even ganking. They are legit targets, thus can be killed.

It speaks to intent though. If you’re claiming they are ganking for profit then there is no reason to gank ships that cannot possibly be profitable. I get that the loot fairy can be mean but there are plenty of ganks where a 100% drop rate would not cover the costs.

And bear in mind that was in response to you saying “Ganking in hisec is just targeting what you can find, with some isk value in return, and with the calculated cost of losing ships to concord.”

@Wadiest_Yong

Should the rest of us assume that you are talking from a wide experience and direct involvement of anything related to griefing and ganking ?

You can assume what you want. I have had direct involvement in ganking, solo, multibox and fleet. I’ve even had a character that used to join in the popping new players, but pulled the rip cord pretty damn quick when I saw it was just being used as an excuse to harass targets. I even signed on with miniluv for a short while and was screamed and then purged when I dared to speak out publicly against griefing.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

He came to Highsec to seek his fortune, and succeeded. He was not a Goon in Highsec.

So because the alt he used to harass miners was not a good he wasn’t a goon. And the point is that without goon backing he wouldn’t have even have a minor success he did have.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

There was never a regular Minerbumping slot entitled ‘Tears of the Day’.

Early on - back in 2012 - there was “Tears of the day”. Guarantee it. Go check.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

Mike would surely agree that he is not in the same company

Only in that he’s humble. Tora, James and Gevlon all had some successes but the amount they blew their own trumpet far exceeded their achievements. James ultimately achieved very little.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

I invite you to set aside your prejudices for a moment and to consider what I am writing

Oh I am, I’m just fully capable of seeing through fog of ■■■■■■■■.

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

there is a third option, maybe your views are just outdated.

That’s a possibility, an interesting one, since we already established a common ground on reverting some of the old changes that addressed “hisec pvp” in a wrong way resulting in today’s look and feel of “ganking in hisec”. Hey, maybe we can come to a resolution of this. Who would have thunk.

@Lucas_Kell

The moment I have a strong opinion gaslight you disagree with and then we’re back to square one

ftfy

@Lucas_Kell

@Wadiest_Yong

ISK value has no relation to griefing, or even ganking. They are legit targets, thus can be killed.

It speaks to intent though. If you’re claiming they are ganking for profit then there is no reason to gank ships that cannot possibly be profitable

It does not. If the game allows to shoot, that liberty is all that is required, no ulterior motives. And I explicitly said ganks and isk are not necessarily connected. It’s fun shooting peeps, like it’s fun kicking a ball, or racing the other guy to the finish. It’s a g a m e . . .

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Lucas_Kell

“Tears of the day”

Yes, there was a blog post entitled Tears of the Day

As always, Lucas is dishonest, and distorts the context, pretending this is some prime example of griefer gameplay. This happened more than ten years ago, and CCP has still not banned James 315. The only reasonable conclusion is that CCP is ok with this blog, and Lucas is just going to have to accept reality.

Wow, that is extreme “griefing”!

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

now that’s what the majority of ganking is about.

In your opinion

@Lucas_Kell

If you’re claiming they are ganking for profit then there is no reason to gank ships that cannot possibly be profitable

Not true. You gank the ships for profit as you need to keep funding the ganking. You also gank for profit so you can afford to gank for lulz

You’d know this if you knew anything about ganking.

@Lucas_Kell

I have had direct involvement in ganking, solo, multibox and fleet.

Sure LOL.

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve even had a character that used to join in the popping new players, but pulled the rip cord pretty damn quick when I saw it was just being used as an excuse to harass targets.

Drop the char name

@Lucas_Kell

I even signed on with miniluv for a short while and was screamed and then purged when I dared to speak out publicly against griefing.

Drop the char

@Lucas_Kell

Only in that he’s humble. Tora, James and Gevlon all had some successes but the amount they blew their own trumpet far exceeded their achievements. James ultimately achieved very little.

Actually the fact that peeps still talk about James but I’ve never heard of Tora or Gevlon says volumes

[Lucas_Kell]

@Wadiest_Yong

Hey, maybe we can come to a resolution of this. Who would have thunk.

One can only hope.

@Wadiest_Yong

It does not. If the game allows to shoot, that liberty is all that is required

By that logic though it means that there can never be any intent.

@Wadiest_Yong

It’s a g a m e . . .

Ironic considering we’re talking about people who create an out of game blog to share them deliberately goading other players into outrage. It doesn’t stop there, if it’s just a game why do they also target streamers and record their live reactions to their griefing while encouraging their fanatics to go on twitch and harass the streamed in their chat?

The “it’s a game” angle would only work if the gankers were themselves remaining within the confines of the game, but they aren’t.

@Aiko_Danuja

The only reasonable conclusion is that CCP is ok with this blog

Or we could stay with reality and point out that CCP is incredibly hesitant to act on anything that occurs on third party platforms.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

Ironic considering we’re talking about people who create an out of game blog to share them deliberately goading other players into outrage. It doesn’t stop there, if it’s just a game why do they also target streamers and record their live reactions to their griefing while encouraging their fanatics to go on twitch and harass the streamed in their chat?

The “it’s a game” angle would only work if the gankers were themselves remaining within the confines of the game, but they aren’t.

Why wouldn’t it? You are engaging in a meta part of the game right now

LOL, the only thing you engage in is the forums my guy

@Lucas_Kell

Or we could stay with reality and point out that CCP is incredibly hesitant to act on anything that occurs on third party platforms.

Not really. It provides good views and good publicity.

Man. The jealously is strong huh?

I’m sorry bruv, no one will read your blog

[Aiko_Danuja]

@Lucas_Kell

if it’s just a game why do they also target streamers and record their live reactions

Why do streamers record their own live reactions?

Should we ban the streamers?

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Lucas_Kell

without goon backing he wouldn’t have even have a minor success

You don’t know the story, and I’m certainly not going to tell it you. James needed no-one’s help to make money. He had green fingers where that was concerned, and Aiko’s the same - folk just can’t stop depositing ISK in that account of hers!

@Lucas_Kell

Early on - back in 2012 - there was “Tears of the day”. Guarantee it. Go check.

You are right, Lucas, there were indeed a few blogposts titled ‘Tears of the Day’ on Minerbumping, in 2012 - (I’ll go back and have a good chortle when I’m done here!).

There were 5 such posts in August and 4 in September of that year (James never continued it) - out of a total of 113 total posts for the 2 months.

But yes, you were right. (See? It’s easily done - and I gained from the experience!).

[Lucas_Kell]

@Sasha_Nemtsov

You don’t know the story, and I’m certainly not going to tell it you. James needed no-one’s help to make money.

That’s OK, I have no real interest in waiting around to see what you can make up anyway.

@Sasha_Nemtsov

But yes, you were right. (See? It’s easily done - and I gained from the experience!).

Great! Now you be right about something and I can do the same.

[Gix_Firebrand]

@Lucas_Kell

That’s OK, I have no real interest in waiting around to see what you can make up anyway.

Bro you live here

[Wadiest_Yong]

@Lucas_Kell

By that logic though it means that there can never be any intent.

Nope, that would make you fail your exam for logic. You cannot draw conclusions from an empty box other than it’s empty.

@Lucas_Kell

Ironic considering we’re talking about people who create an out of game blog to share them deliberately goading other players into outrage. It doesn’t stop there, if it’s just a game why do they also target streamers and record their live reactions to their griefing while encouraging their fanatics to go on twitch and harass the streamed in their chat?

From logic to the math chapter on hyperboles ? Only in this thread.
The deliberate goal is to extort ISK, which is good business, not tears because those don’t have ISK value. The violence following a refusal to pay the ISK is bad business, because it drives up the working costs of the operation (that’s the rp element in play).
In EvE there are consequences to bad behaviour. Producing salt and tears, or worse, may land you on a blog. That’s still better than landing yourself on a ticket for (alleged) griefing and threatening, no ?

As to streamers, almost all of them know how to take precautions against ganking and are not interfered with at all (Merk, Pando, Brisc, BjornBee, Marquee, EVElog, to name a few). They are not above the rest of EvE. One guy got cocky in bloody Caldari hisec…, and was (only) bumped last week. Big deal eh ? Major crime against humanity, a sign of the utmost toxicity. Btw, fanatics do not need any encouragement. Then again, overreactions beget more reactions. Last week’s incident had a clear starting point.

[Aiko_Danuja]

Oh, wow, here’s another one: Tears of the Day

Hey, this is great stuff - that James fellow sounds like my kinda guy!