So basically what your saying is keep ganking profitable so gankers can create more alts to go ganking with…
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That’s a big if, especially since CCP has explicitly said that they found that ship loss was not the reason why most players quit. Moreover, there is the matter of players who play Eve because they enjoy ganking, enjoy a challenging, game, and/or enjoy profiting indirectly from the destruction that ganking causes.
Now, don’t get it twisted, I’m sure there are players that quit because they don’t like being ganked. But you can’t make a game that everyone loves. And trying to turn Eve into a kindler, gentler game that attracts the type of players that want that sort of game is going to drive away the players that don’t. So, I disagree with your perspective. I don’t think that CCP should be trying to retain players that don’t actually want to play a brutal PvP-centric game with a harsh death mechanic whose name literally stands for Everyone Versus Everyone, and instead focus on keeping their target audience happy.
How exactly is it my argument in reverse? I mean, I literally argued that you can’t just look at ship cost when it comes balancing. Are you sure you didn’t mean to say that it’s the reverse argument of the guy I was responding to?
Dude, get out of here. There has been a never ending stream of people asking for ganking to be nerfed. Now, the guy I responded to didn’t specifically say that ganking should be nerfed, but considering how much he said it was bad for the game, and how unbalanced it was, I’m pretty sure that he is pro-nerf. I mean, how do you think he expected the issue to be resolved if it didn’t involve ganking being directly or indirectly nerfed?
I just don’t understand this line of reasoning here.
True, but I’m pretty sure that it would be a mistake to balance things based upon the resources of richest and most powerful vets -especially when people like Aiko Danuja exceptionally rare. I mean, should we balance AT ships based on Von Hole’s ability to kill them? I mean, it’s kind of absurd to point to someone who is atypical of the average ganker, and say that ganking should be balanced around their resources.
Oh, btw, I still fly marauders, and I’m rather risk adverse. In fact, many people would probably say that I overtank my ships. So, I’m not sure why you think the risk is so high. Personally, and this is 100% true, I consider my biggest risk not to be rats, or players, but DC’s.
CCP are not especially good at recognising these things. And the only thing I have seen is on 15 day trial accounts in terms of ganking.
I am already at the point that I think ganking is on balance good for the game, it does not mean however that it could not be better.
It is not so much that, but that the environment is more difficult, Marauders are one part of this in that they are now so much more likely to be ganked. I had some players come back and they expressed shock at how many gankers were on gates.
I have said and will continue to say that you need prey, I regret to tell you that gankers make very very poor prey. where is the end of this, just gankers running around. I know that is a bit over the top but if people like that marauder pilot give up then what happens to the game. The game has to be perceived as giving them a chance to enjoy themselves, of course that player could reinvent himself, many do but if you keep having to reinvent due to game changes and players hunting for content how long do even the toughest give up?
It is loot, now they don’t care about loot. I did not make that clear.
Of course you don’t, very few gankers do. It is also part of the issue with pure brutal PvP games and those that are more kind. Eve managed to straddle this quite well in that the less brutal players managed to sustain themselves, but if it gets out of kilter too far and too many prey disappear the game will implode.
A great example is hisec indy. People don’t notice it, but it is not good at all.
The issue here is that it makes the normal balance of grind and loss irrelevant and players will assess it and think nah not for me.
DC’s are a major risk for marauders, with the bastion active and your tank shutting off. Had some close calls, however Marauders are dying in much greater numbers to gankers over the last year. People who enjoy using that ship and assessing the risk and cost will start making tough decisions on that. Some already have.
That being said I am going to add a PvP Vargur at some point…
And there is one very important fact to remember, where is your base line, because in 2009 people were not using destroyers to gank because their DPS was too low. When their -25% ROF penelty was removed they became viable and from that the cost of ganking reduced significantly, causing an explosion of ganking. So when you talk about whether people have a valid argument in terms of ship cost remember where we came from.
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Okay, I can agree with much of that.
One counterpoint that I have to make, however, concerns the increase of marauders getting ganked. Are more getting ganked because there is a fundamental balance issue? Or are more getting ganked because they were buffed, and now there are a ton more are in space?
Okay, I have a few other quibbles, but I need to run. So, I’ll leave it at that.
Thanks for the discussion.
There are more in space because of the buff, so yes, however T2 fitted ones getting ganked makes me…, concerned. I will keep an eye on that, both of mine have a faction repper on, so…
o7
It’s curious how the conversation invariably shifts toward the plight of the “new” players, and whenever that happens, there is a lot of outcry over them losing “rookie ships” like freighters and marauders. Because that’s exactly what new players fly; freighters and marauders.
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Yes, we are RECRUITING! Join the 400mill/hour ganking guild, and get rich quick! Blap Marauders today, and you can buy one tomorrow!
Newbros can be billionaires, within just three hours, GUARANTEED! Nobody is left out, everybody in the clan will PROFIT.
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That’s the kind of buzz that really appeals to my targeted demographic!
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I am thinking it is really wrong, CRUEL AND UNETHICAL, for these hardcore nolife ganker griefer scammer bullies to be sitting around HARASSING and BULLYING the poor newbro casual Marauder and Freighter pilots. It is disgusting that a hardcore newbro ganker with NO LIFE can make more than 400 billion isk an hour, just by ganking SHiPS THAT CAN’T SHOOT BACK, and I know everybody can do this, but some of us have MORAL STANDARDS and we are here to have FUN in a videogame and not just GET RICH QUICK, which is why ganking needs ONE MORE NERF.
@Dracvlad just look at this
JUST LOOK AT IT!
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I think you need to calm down, you seem a bit mad. Another forum alt, lol…
And why would I read anything written by that bitter, twisted and hate filled person?
No…ganking doesn’t need nerfing. And if someone’s making 400m an hour, good for them.
The real issue is that anti-ganking doesn’t have enough supporters. If all the people who whine about ganking actually got together and acted…they could be a formidable force. But people seem to prefer to just whine ’ poor me…I got ganked ’ and then just carry right on doing whatever activity got them ganked, whereas devoting even 10% of their Eve time to anti-ganking would collectively make a big difference.
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At one point AG was quite vibrant and could put together fleets. However the mechanics are against it.
Prior to wardecs being changed any attempt to create a AG corp and alliance was destroyed by continuous war decs. With the war dec change dedicated alliances and corps was now possible, however other things changed.
Prior to tethering there were people running around hunting the gankers in space, but tethering stopped that dead.
One of the biggest issues is that you cannot rep anyone that shoots on a ganker, this is due to the changes they made to neutral repping. So we cannot have a fleet sitting to blap gankers supported by logi because the game mechanics disallow it. We end being an individual with no support against gankers who can throw a mass of ships against us and pick us off one by one. This change seriously damaged AG fleets.
They loot scoop through or into DST’s with cheap ships.
Also the use of secondary characters by most hisec players to do various things like PI preclude them from ganking scouts, they need security status. ANd KR’s for offensive actions means you lose freedom of movement with that character. It has to be a dedicated character for AG ganking work.
Then there is the end game issue, every counter has a counter.
The multi boxing gankers have excellent counters and an end point that is difficult to beat. Lets say that I and a few others start sensor dampening the initial point, if it is -10 great but if they use tags I have to wait until he engages and then do it. I increase their cost, but I can’t stop him unless i go criminal In that time he can get that Macharial on it and start bumping, because while time limited they only need the time to get probes on and warp in the fleet.
Ganking the bumper is costly and of course opens you to KR’s and reduces your security status. I need a fleet of people who are willing to lose security status and have KR’s against them…
If we bump their prey out of optimal all they do is bring Stealth Bombers.
Miner gankers will often just go and gank someone else if they have a whiff of someone set up for them. We have to identify their target and set up for them, not easy.
To one shot a Catalyst is 5,400 damage. You have to remove them fast to have an impact on their damage output, so think about a solo AG trying to remove gankers with DPS. A Tornado with split guns can take out two per gank and reduce their damage.
Stormbringers are an option, I was told by other players that they were not suited, but then had others say that they could work, so I listened to what they said and decided that they could, however each one is 660m so well worth ganking and they will, no reps possible if used. You will have to have five of them. They are a long train to be effective enough too.
At the end of the day DPS is often too difficult you need fast lock high alpha and rapid firing.
The most effective AG is loot scooping before the gankers can get it, followed by repping the target with a burst repper, though this is not always that easy. The repping side is frustrating because so many of the prey don’t even bother with a tank. So in the end you find that you are trying to save idiots…, it is a killer for participation.
A lot of gankers just stay tethered and go afk, the AG has to sit around waiting and it boring and tedious.
There is a reason why I call it a resistance movement. It is just people do things to oppose and increase their costs. If you really really really want to hurt gankers, loot denial is the best approach, there are AG players in the past that drove the gankers mad with this. Kusion was on walking in stations and he whined about people stealing his loot. This is the one where you can have the most success and make a ton of ISK too. I was speaking with one such old AG player who had Lolyalanon following him around desperate to get revenge for all the loot they took from him It works.
I advise people to use the Celestis to remove that initial tackle, I see bumpers coming back. I advised people to use Crucifiers to catch them on gates as they move around hunting for prey, some people do it. But organised AG is few and far between at this point.
Many of us just found the gameplay not worth doing. All the people I AG’d with are now in nullsec.
What you need is someone to develop a dedicated alliance with funding and the like, but so many people have tried and failed to do it.
Most gankers operate as a solo player with many accounts, AG has to get people together to compete, often you cannot do much on your own.
I hope that this helps.
NB While Ganking is pretty much balanced IMO, the AG vs Gankers mechanics is most definitely not. This post is not a whine, which is what the ignorant gankers will throw at me. It is an explanation of why there are so few AG players
I have fun shooting gankers every so often, but no way can I do this as a main gameplay.
PS I don’t know why you bother Aiko, you are blocked period.
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I was watching this particular anti-gank in Jita only last night. The guy seems to have waited for the gankers to return and then leave again. This is exactly what I was looking for, as either sniping or kiting would be my own method. I’m setting up a Corax for that…though maybe there is a better ship.
A question : Can I get Clone Soldier Negotiator tags directly from a Concord station ? I don’t really want to buy them at Jita and then get ganked with them on the way to the Concord station. I intend to attack proactively…which means I’ll be losing .25 security status every time.
What do the blue flashy symbols represent underneath the red ‘-’ symbols for the gankers in this video ?
Aww. I like Aiko. Maybe its a grudging admiration…and she’s one of the few who is consistent, so you know where you stand.
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So you’re saying that AGs are utterly incompetent and aren’t an actual military force capable of standing up to hostilities, and as such need handicaps to be unfairly provided in their favor in order to artificially boost their effectiveness in their chosen profession?
You don’t say.
Tethering…as in that game mechanic that functions pretty much exactly like sitting inside a POS shield did before 2016?
You don’t say.
You can freely assist players who don’t have a limited engagement timer, and if they do have a limited engagement timer, all you have to do is share that timer with your assistance target in order to be able to assist them freely. All that requires is shooting the ganker once.
You’re nothing but a serial whiner who doesn’t know anything about the game.
I found Aiko fun at times, but has a nasty side too. For some stupid reason Aiko decided to throw that allegation you picked up on directly against me, life is too short to bother with such stupidity so I blocked.
I’m not clear yet what the actual cost is. I know the negotiator tags are around 20m ISK…but I’ve seen reference to a further cost, some sort of penalty or something of around 70m ISK. So are we talking about 90m ISK for each 2 points of security status ? That’s like 8 lots of AG…as its about .25 point loss for each attack. I can handle that.
You can always go grind it back up in nullsec. In the past some pirates had jump clones in NPC nullsec like Stain to do that.
I have picked up some tags in lowsec a few times but gave them to the people who gank ganker scouts. That is also something worth doing, removing their eyes while easy to replace costs them time.
Another thing is giving accurate intel on when they are flashy red in Uedama, if people can slip past they lose. Same for Odin / Ohide (I think that is the right name.)
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