Nerf Ganking Megathread

Thats exactly the intention. You would choose a T1 Destroyer to add to your fleet comp specifically when you need affordable and mobile ships able to deal with frig-size threats roaming your neighborhood and and cannot afford or do not want to field more expensive or less mobile counters.

Gankers would switch to T1 Cruisers, what is totally fine since fielding 5 Omens instead of Coercers is more initial cost, higher SP needed for the pilots (alts usually -_-) and more hassle traveling within Highsec. They are also take longer to build, are harder to ship to the resupply stations and so on. Everything for itself not that big deal for an organized group, everything still managable but all in all a bit harder than now.

That leads to the point where of course Freighters can still be ganked by using 20 or 30 Omens for example, but the one or the other T2 fit casualgamer might just be left alone because the gankers think twice if they really want to throw away 6 cruisers to punish him for autopiloting his half-heartedly fitted empty Bestower. Or rather look for a target that guarantees a drop worth 6 cruisers. And on the other hand, ganking is that lucrative these days and the hull prices for most target ships have gone up drastically in the last months / years, I see no bad thing in basically forcing gankers to bring at least cruisers to the table if they want to bring down big ships, so their costs also scale up a bit. So, they can gank, no hassle with that, but it should not be as cheap as it is today.

I am playing that game since 2009 and played it in nearly every field of PvE and PvP imaginable, from perma -10 lowsec piracy to wormhole resident, HighSec Missionrunner, Abyssals, Industry and whatnot. I know so much that all this “it’s entirely your own fault if you have been ganked” is nonsense. There are of course good hints and you can do some moves but if the gankers really know what they are doing and make no major mistakes in executing the gank, you have basically zero chances to survive. They can scan your fit, track your location via Agents if they want, watch you with neutral alts and all of a sudden you take a gate and 20 catalysts wait behind. Do you really expect everyone to dualbox all the time and only take gates with a neutral scout checking before, using non-efficient full-tank-fits because “Uhh EVE is a harsh and dark place!!!” - come on. Thats unrealistic and even from a neutral perspective not desirable. And worse, no amount of tutorials and edicational campaigns would better the situation a bit, because the amount of effort to prevent ganks is WAY higher than the amount of effort it takes to gank someone.

@Aiko Danuja: I totally agree, just not in the way you might think: After the resistance nerf and the short-range buffs I (personally) think raw eHP should be boosted in general for all ship classes. Fights are often over way too quickly, especially one-sided ones are more like a 10-second-firework these days. I am all with you, giving a combat-cruiser more raw HP than a barge (just leave the barge as it is).
Freighters are capital size ships, so they should be compared to combat-capitals and in that comparison they don’t look particulary strong.
I absolutely agree with you that combat ships should be weaker than non-combat ships and by quite a margin. All within their size-class of course. However: Then they also need to be a LOT cheaper then their combat-counterparts. Freighters and Orcas however do cost a lot MORE than battleships for example, people would surely complain a lot less if a freighter would cost 500M, an Orca 300M and an Exhumer 100M. Would that be OK for you?

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It has already been explained countless times that cost is not a barrier to ganking in general, as if gankers want a target to die on principle, then it will.

“Seeing no bad thing” is not justification for a change. What is the actual benefit from the change?

On top of that, what is the giveback for this change? What will you be offering gankers in return for increasing their costs with the intention of decreasing the amount of ganking (and by effect the amount of gameplay) they are able to accomplish?

Or is this just another “one more nerf” thinly veiled as equitable progress for all?

This is conjecture.

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We don’t disagree here. If gankers want a target to die, they can kill it. Nothing to complain about that. I just want that to be more expensive that it currently is. Thats a pure personal opinion because I believe that the balance has shifted too much in favor of the gankers (I explained that before, prices for Battleships, Factioncruisers, Orcas, Freighters all gone up by large amounts, prices for Destroyers have not, at leas not noticeable).
The benefit is the re-establishing of balance in my eyes. So you might see it as a “change” and ask for givebacks, but I see it as a re-balance towards a situation that has been lost to a lot of changes in the past, so there is nothing to give “back”. In my eyes, we just correct a wrong status, there is no compensation for that. No problem with you disagreeing with that point of view of course, it’s your business model in the end. :slight_smile:

Asking for mechanical changes each time the market shifts is a very roundabout way of balancing the game. If your issue is that ships are more expensive now, then address that instead of addressing just one of many scenarios in which ships are lost.

Because what if your idea is accepted, and then a year later, CCP changes industry again and ship prices come down? Are you going to ask for destroyer buffs when that happens? Because if you’re a 2009 player, you should be fully aware that industry has had multiple up/down cycles, while ganking has only ever been nerfed.

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Well, let’s be fair here, ganking has benefited from various changes. But yeah, I agreed with everything else.

I think this indicates that CCP believes there are too many battleships, faction cruisers, orcas, and freighters.

At one of the last live events, Hilmar said that he wanted to make loss more meaningful again. So, they aren’t necessarily trying to suppress usage of things like faction ships, battleships, or freighters (in fact, they’ve been buffing battleships), but instead trying to increase the emotional response to danger and ship loss, and to make the game more thrilling -which, does sound good on paper.

Of course, I’m not sure if this has panned out as intended, as all that it’s mostly seemed to have accomplished is to lead to increased risk aversion, people complaining that their risk needs to be reduced, and some people logging off. In fact, CCP might even be backpeddling on this already by reducing build requirements for various things.

It’s kind of unfortunate. This seems to indicate that the community, as an aggregate, is more concerned with accumulating stuff and making numbers go up, than it is with fun and excitement.

What about all the players using destroyers as an entry point to abyssal runs? That’s that gameplay destroyed.

It’s the same old same old. In order to fix something that doesn’t need “fixing” people are prepared to completely break something else.

One of the few people still able to have a structure near Jita because he is one of you, it is not a surprise he is making that amount of ISK, because the war deccers have burnt most of the competition’s structures. I repeat, the situation is not good at all.

By the way just to be clear, that person is taking advantage of your dominant position in hisec, which is earned by blowing stuff up, and I am not criticising that as you doing that, just CCP’s lack of balanced thought here. Just noting the fact of a reduction in hisec indy from small and solo people, which in my view is not a good thing, IMO of course…

It is a mixture, but mostly get ganked on gates going to and from a mission, I used to have a mission fit and a travel fit and used an MTU to refit in mission system if there was no station.

That is the issue, you can afford to do it.

NB. The post I did on AG vs gankers was to point out the issues with AG to answer to another player’s question. I would love to see an AG fleet contesting Uedama gates, but @Faylee_Freir will tell you that I was totally against the change to remote repping in the war dec discord.

This right here exposes that you don’t even play :smiley: Also you’re just parroting what she said LOL.

You misread. He is using NPC stations to install jobs in because he doesn’t trust station owners. I’m about to get him hooked up with his own structure though so he will be making even more.

Why is this an issue? The only reason it’s profitable is because of the people getting ganked. If all we had to kill was T2 guys then there’s little room for profit… but when you’re killing idiots with 3-4b fit or people moving 10b in an untanked DST or Freighter then they are fueling future ganks with potential loot drops.

See it’s not what WE are doing to make it ultra profitable but what OTHERS are doing to make it ultra profitable for us. There’s no issue or balance problem with that. Unless you are suggesting that CCP limit how much isk someone can throw on a fit or in their cargo… lol

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If he is making ISK like that using NPC stations then you really have cleaned out most of his competitors.

Them for not being careful, sure. But I have already laid out the issue with AG and why you are not opposed in any organised way, and that one is down to CCP, you are just taking advantage of their poor balancing to farm those ISK’ies.

What has my avoidance or not of them to do with there financial situation?

I suggest you look at system indexes before you talk about something you don’t know about.

That’s your opinion. Anti gankers content depends and relies on us having content. My goal is to give you as little content as possible so you get bored. Killing your ruptures and thoraxes isn’t the content we want so we just ignore you while giving you as little of a window as possible to interact with us. It’s great.

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I know all about system indexes… I have been making things for years in NPC stations.

Yes it is.

Na, you’re making it too easy imho. Its not one of the usual “market shifts” via demand and supply and no one complains and demands changes “every time”.
The current situation is a direct result of gameplay changes done by CCP, the ganking situation (or better: the resulting disproportion in costs) was - in my opinion - simply overlooked by them when they made these changes.
Just to have some numbers we talk about (eve-marketer 20d averages):
Providence cost Jan 2021: 1.8B - Today: 3.5B
Orca cost in Jan 2021: 1.0B - Today: 1.7B
Gila cost in Jan 2021: 200M - Today: 330M
Machariel const in Jan 2021: 540M - Today: 810M

On the other hand:
Coercer cost in Jan 2021: 2.1M - Today: 1.1M
Catalyst cost in Jan 2021: 1.9M - Today: 1.0M

I would at least not be against it, should there a new disproportion arise. The reason why I even bother to post in this topic is that from my observations ganking has really gone over the top in the last year or so. As said, I played for many many years and always had highseec alts to produce and ship my PvP stuff around or grind some missions in a blingy marauder or faction-BS (we want it to be fast, to spend as little time in HS as possible, right?) - and never sensed ganking as a big problem. Yes, from time to time some idiot transporting his BPOs was blown up or someone having his freighter autpiloting with 3B cargo while not fitting a single bulkhead or using his 5B Golem in primetime near the most populated mission hubs… never had tears for these guys.

But recently this has changed imho. Even adequately fitted ships are blown up because it has become that cheap. In the last weeks and months I have seen T2-fit Machariels, full-tank Purger-Rattlesnakes without damagemods even, empty Orcas and Freighters blown to pieces by highly organized ganksquads (probably 90% alts) because even T2 drop or freighter wreck salvage pays for the whole fleet.

Your only straw of defense is “Yeah bit they STILL did MISTAKES! They should have been in ganking-intel and used scouts and webbers and whatnot! They just get what they deserve!!!”. But from adult to adult I ask you to be serious here: Not everyone in a game as big as EVE can be a tryhard permanently under full paranoia, thats not even funny and while I agree EVE should be PvP-focused, there should be room for casuals and relaxed base activities. EVE is for a large part also about community, chatting and doing some base stuff with moderate attention while having a few friends on TS and smalltalking. What do you expect missionrunners to do to leave them alone? Tripleplated trimark T1 Battleships that take an hour for a single L4 mission? If you really think flying anything more blingy than that deseves punishment, we don’t share the same view on the game.

Ganking has become too much, too cheap and too greedy in my opinion, thats why - currently - you have my voice for a nerf. To be honest when I was -10 lowsec pirate for around 5 years I never understood why they even let flashies jump to HS via gates or dock there. EVE is a dark and harsh place, isn’t it? These bad pirates should suffer shouldn’t they? As “consequence” for their “mistakes” (shooting ppl in high)? No? Why not? I thought EVE should be hard? Fflashies have low, zero, wh space and can pefectly live there. I did that for years, no problem with it. They could even gank in HS coming through wormholes and filaments - we did that back in the days when we were bored.

No, what you argue for is the same fluffy conviencent surrounding you declare “whining” when the PvE-ers do it. You want to keep your low costs, your docking shelters, your easy supply-chains and your easy access to the most profitable ganking systems. What you ask from everyone else you are not willing to do: face harsh consequences for your actions. And no, getting a cheap destroyer blown up by CONCOD is not a harsh consequence.
Don’t misunderstand me: I don’t advertise for such changes, but I could totally understand CCP if they did it this way. At least thats what I would probably do as game developer. Its not l ike that your are “banned” from HS forever, you can alsways go ratting or buy tags for sec-status, right? But then it gets really costly and I sense you are not willing to pay these costs, right? :slight_smile:

No, for the moment I’d just like to see the huge misproportion in costs being corrected and see if that has any impact in at least sparing some casuals. You say it woudn’t, fine. Fhen why complain if we try it? I just guess, but all these organized ganking corps have double- or triple-digit billions of ISK in their wallets and their storage and production chains for destroyers goes by the hundreds already, then why even bother? Please please don’t tell me you are arguing for “the good of the game” or even “the little guy”. I don’t believe that one second. :wink:

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Awesome post, truly spot on, I wish more people could see it like you do.

Then CCP should adjust the build costs of destroyers to be in line with the adjustments to other hulls.

Yeah, that doesn’t mean anything. Many times we’ve had this sort of situation, and people like you never spoke up and said “okay, we should give a boost to ganking now that recent changes have made it more difficult or costly without any sort of giveback.” This always goes in just one direction, and you know it.

Ganking has “gone over the top” in recent years because CCP quite literally removed every single other form of high-sec PvP and piracy from the game, such as can-baiting, extortion wars, protection rackets, most forms of mission-baiting, etc. There’s no other method of attacking another player anymore aside from suicide-ganking them. So of course all of the players who used to engage in a wide variety of activities switched to ganking. It’s either that, or stop playing the game entirely.

Ganking didn’t become cheaper. In most cases, it has actually become more expensive, because baseline ship EHP has gone up over the years. For example, every ship got a bonus to their hull hit points from the DCU changes, and not every setup (especially as far as PvE is concerned) uses damage controls. Additionally, CCP has continuously boosted industrial ship EHP, as is evident from the most recent example of barge EHP nearly doubling.

You’re also not factoring in the cost of accounts into the ganking equation.

People are free to play casually, but the rewards of their casual play should be in line with their efforts. That means that the negative trade-off of playing casually will be decreased profits from taking losses more often, or having to do more travel/living further away from profit centers like the mission hubs where gankers operate. Your argument here is predicated on casual players being entitled to the same level of rewards as non-casual players. Why should this be the case?

Yeah, I’m not buying it.

And even if true, we both know that the reason you don’t mind this is because you had characters specifically dedicated to various activities, just like all pirates did and do. That means you never had to worry about sending your -10 to high-sec, because whenever you needed to sell your loot, you’d send your hauler alt instead.

This obviously doesn’t apply to suicide-ganking, because suicide-gankers have to operate in high-sec space. Claiming that their difficulty should be increased to the point where their activity is prohibitively punishing to the extent that it can’t reasonably be performed is an asinine argument. Just ask for CCP to remove the ability to be hostile to other players in high-sec space, as other carebears do.

This once again smells of unjustified one-more-nerfism. It’s the same tired old argument of “these gankers sure do have a lot of money, why shouldn’t CCP take some of it away?” Did the gankers make that money by having CCP give it to them? No, they worked for it. So here’s a novel idea: instead of asking CCP to redistribute their wealth by force, why don’t you go and take it yourself? Taking other players’ money through the act of ganking is a player activity. Why shouldn’t taking money away from gankers also be a player activity?

All you do is whine and moan about the game that you don’t even play. Your opinion isn’t worth anything whatsoever. Why are you even here?

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Aehm… at this point we can stop the discussion because you simply try to spread myths here. Of course all -10ers always had supporter chars in HighSec or at least purchased or profited from corp-programmes (production, hauling etc…) which were done entirely by alt-corps either from 0.0, WH or High. No one ever questioned that.
But please don’t try to tell anyone that the -10sec HighSec Gankers have to produce, buy and haul their stuff themselves in Highsec. Thats laughable. They of course have whole non-flashy production- and hauling-structure behind them that brings their fully equipped gankships to wherever they need them. All their scouts, scanners, looters are non-flashy so please stop trying to tell us a -10sec ganker has a “hard time in HS”.

I also don’t forget the account costs: with SP-farming and looking up the ganking-kills on Zkill and what they drop I know that these PLEX-costs for the armada of alts are just peanuts compared to the profit of ganking.

Also please stop saying you can’t do other PvP in Highsec any more. Thats just plain BS. Go look around who has Citadels or Custom Offices and wardec him, go after his stuff and you get PvP every day. Every. Single. Day. They will fight back, be sure of it. Oh wait. Thats probably not what you want at all…

What a wall of text.