I love the feature “set filter for slot” that is available in the fitting tool as it helps players quickly navigate to the modules that are needed.
I did however notice that this feature is not available for Structure services, drones and even ammo for guns would be good to have a “set filter for” feature so that players can quickly navigate to that.
It would also be nice to have an added feature where you can simulate implants being put into the character in the fitting tool so that you can see for example, what CPU implant you would need in order to make the fit flyable.
Something else that I feel is lacking is a simple overview where you can see how much of your total DPS that is actually going to be applied at certain distances or to different ship sizes.
Right now, most new players just think that a 1000dps is 1000dps and there is nothing more to it and they therefore always try and fit for max DPS rather than trying to get that DPS to apply correctly. So it would be nice for players to have a clear overview of how drones and the guns fitted apply to different ship sizes and at different distances.
If anyone has more suggestions for new features for the fitting tool please feel free to add a comment below!
Yeah, this is something that needs to be explained a lot better to players. I don’t know why, for all the work CCP’s been doing to help new players, they’ve never actually made this part more accessible and easily understood.
So, the fitting tool is a little basic when compared to Pyfa, but Pyfa also exists, and it’s ■■■■■■■ amazing (the only thing I don’t like about it is that there is no dark theme). Thus, I just use Pyfa for like 85% of my fitting needs, and would rather the devs work on other stuff, than recreating what a 3rd party dev has already done.
Of course, I might regret this position if Pyfa ever stops being maintained.
I generally agree with @Shipwreck_Jones’ sentiment that if a 3rd party tool does the job, CCP’s effort is better spent on things nobody has developed yet - especially where the work is rather complex, like fitting/damage application simulation.
I wouldn’t object if CCP added this to the fitting tool, just as I wouldn’t object if they made a version of the simulator available via mobile, but if I was picking between development choices this would be a pretty low priority given the viable third-party tool providing this service.
I know about PYFA but having 3rd party tools is really bad for new player retention so the long term goal of CCP should be to work towards a fitting tool that replaces all the features that you find in pyfa.
Most new players I’ve talked to don’t know about most 3rd party tools and if you think about it. How would you feel if all 3rd party tools were removed? probably not that good. This is exactly how new players feel when they drop of early since for them, the game UI is all that EVE is.
Yes, Pyfa is amazing but I would assume that 80-90% of players that leave this game has never heard about or used pyfa and that’s a huge problem. 3rd party tools are good for players that are already deep into this game. They will gladly take the time to google around to find stuff but in order to get new players to stay you need to have a long term plan of integrating all 3rd party tools into this game so that they can be accessed by new players on day one.
Please explain what your source is for this claim. Have you surveyed thousands of players to ask them what would make EVE a better experience for them? Have you run a newbro corp showing players how to interact with EVE? What is your basis for making this sweeping statement?
I do agree that most of their time should be spent on new features but copying already existing 3rd party features probably takes less developing time than coming up with something new so there should be a team working on that.
I think that integrating 3rd party tools into this game is essential for new player retention. Most new players that I’ve talked to don’t know about any 3rd party tools and if you think about it…how would you feel if 3rd party tools weren’t available? Because that’s exactly how a new player feels before he discovers them. Problem is, he will most likely leave the game before discovering them since most players are used to having everything integrated into the game that they play.
Do you understand the legal implications of what you are discussing? CCP cannot just copy PYFA and put it in the game - its creator owns that code, and even if they were willing to sell it to CCP, it may not be compatible with EVE’s internal code base (as digesting extracted data sets is a completely different animal from processing data from its native environment).
If you believe the third party tools need better visibility, then encourage CCP to bring attention to them in Rookie chat, support articles, etc. A lot of these tools are specialized and require a great deal of support (guides and information on how they function) to utilize successfully, so just throwing them into the game won’t actually help new players use them anyway. Encourage new players to visit the EVE Uni wiki, point them to your own corp’s training materials, and in general help new players learn how to help themselves - as there is virtually nothing in EVE where at least a little off-game research is not necessary.
My source is just talking to hundreds of new players over the years and the vast majority of them don’t know about the vast majority of 3rd party tools. Most doesn’t know about any.
And, if you were to ask your veteran buddies that play the game if they would be mad if all 3rd party tools were removed. How do you think they would react? Probably not good. The 3rd party tools are essential to this game.
So I’m just putting these things together and think it’s therefore reasonable to assume that new players will have a much higher chance of staying if all 3rd party tools were easily accessible inside the game from day one.
Okay, you are making a significant logical leap from ‘players do not know about tools’ to ‘if players knew about the tools from day 1, they would be more likely to stay’. The tools being in-game might make a difference for a tiny percentage of players who would otherwise leave - but most players who leave do so because EVE wasn’t the game for them in the first place.
Again, simply putting the tools in the game doesn’t make them more functionally usable to players - not only do you have to find them in the already large menu of tools, you also have to explain what the tool is and how to use it (and can I tell you how many vets I have spoken to who didn’t know about the Compare tool and how to use it?). Unless each and every tool is given an in-game tutorial, the tools are just as inaccessible to a new player in-game as via a third party site. The only argument for in-game is not having to open up a website or app separate from EVE to run them - but that is countered by app developers not being locked into CCP’s development cycle and thus being free to iterate on their work as needed instead of only when CCP budgets for QoL improvements.
If you were to ask veteran players how much of a part 3rd party tools plays in their overall eve experience what answer would you hear back. Probably anywhere from 20% to 40%.
So for new players, not having easy access to 20-40% of the total gameplay experience is of course going to make a lot of them leave.
We can’t make anyone stay that doesn’t like the core gameplay of eve but those people that we really WANT to stay are people who actually like the core but leave based on other factors. Like, they got annoyed at the fitting tool, they didn’t find a cool corp to join because the corp finding UI is terrible, they didn’t find a good way of interacting with people in the Chat or any other number of things that need improvement.
I actually made a separate post on this topic of improving the social media/chat aspects of this game. So I hope you read that
Except putting the tools in the game doesn’t make them easier to use - it only maybe makes them more likely to be stumbled upon. The number one way to improve the new player retention rate among those who are actually interested in EVE is to improve the NPE itself and do a better job of explaining core game mechanics, followed closely by do a better job connecting players socially to others who are interested in helping them learn and grow in EVE.
Neither of those requires moving the tools inside of EVE - both are focused on improving communication of information to new players. Whether the tools are inside the game or not is irrelevant to disclosing the existence of supportive content and helping new players engage with it.
I can see what you’re saying, but I think it would have been a much better point before the in-game fitting tool existed. Now, we have a basic in-game tool that all the newbros can easily find and use; and most of them just won’t need all those features, nor want to deal with even more complexity. Thus, I think the in-game tool does what it needs to do. Don’t get me wrong, a more robust in-game tool would be nice (for the sake of convenience and my eyes), but I just don’t think it’s worth the dev time to replicate a tool we already have.
I am talking about ease of access. In my experience, the vast majority of new players never get to experience these 3rd party tools because they leave before they get a chance to.
So my argument is that a good chunk of them would stay if you could improve their gameplay experience by 20-40% which more likely would be the case if all tools were easily accessible in game.
If they were accessible in game they could also be part of the new player experience.
So you could for example have missions that learn you how to use the “Pyfa/fitting tool” in game.
You could have missions that teaches you how to use Evepraisal.
You could have new players missions where the goal is to get their first kill om “zkillboard in game”
You could have missions that let new players map out a wormhole chain on Tripewire in game.
I think all of these things would massively improve player retentions for those players that actually like the core gameplay but leave for other reasons.
Except simply accessing a tool doesn’t improve anyone’s gameplay experience. Okay, so there is a menu item for viewing killmails - what does it do? Why is it relevant? How do you use it, and what are the pros and cons of its data set? Also, how do players control whether their killmails are accessible to others? Does it opt in by default, or is it locked down and you have to edit permissions to make your killmails accessible?
How does having it in-game answer any of those questions, or help a player use it?
Once you put the tools inside the game, CCP has to maintain them, create and maintain instruction materials for them, and update them alongside all the other code maintenance that goes into every release. Whereas when they are out of the game, not only can they not possibly break other components of EVE, they can be independently updated and improved upon without waiting for CCP to decide to spend money on a tiny aspect of their game engine. Just look at the fitting tool that is already in EVE - it’s 4 years old and has been hardly touched.
I would much rather the tools remain outside EVE where they can continue to be developed, than get shoehorned into EVE and left to languish.
But I do agree that the existence of useful out-of-game content needs to be better promoted during the NPE - including these forums, which tons of players are utterly unaware of.
Would you agree that most veteran players think that certain 3rd party tools are essential to their gameplay? That they are tools that many would rage about if they were taken away?
If the answer is Yes, then I really don’t see why you are arguing about it because that proves 100% that these tools add essential value to their gameplay. Value, that is NOT there for new players who haven’t had the chance to access these tools.
Therefore, making these tools more available for new players will increase player satisfaction substantially. That’s just a fact.
You are focusing on all negative aspects and worst-case scenarios you can think of instead of thinking about what would be an optimal solution to make new players stay for longer which is a huge problem for EVE. This is why CCP has made new player retention one of their number 1 priorities over the past years.
Yes, of course, there would be a bit more maintenance for CCP. But if that little bit of maintenance results in a good increase in player retention that’s well worth it.
It’s just like any other improvement that you can make to the game. If it results in more players playing it’s worth it.
The number of logical fallacies in your argument here is staggering.
I have actively seen tools leave support. Not only do players not rage, many of them volunteer to take over support of those tools - an option not open to the player base for in-game features CCP elects to decommission.
In order for a tool to provide value, it must be actually accessible to players. Not just accessed by, but accessible. That means it needs to be accessed in a manner that makes it useful in a meaningful fashion. For a lot of tools, the EVE UI does not and cannot provide that access with a cost prohibitive overhaul of the interface.
That is a hypothesis, not a fact. Not only have you not demonstrated that these tools would add value to the average veteran if connected to from within the client, you have not demonstrated how them being in the client helps new players.
No, I am focusing on explaining why CCP released third-party tool development support in the first place, and why pulling all of those features back in house is a loss for the player base as a whole, as well as countering your baseless claims about new player experience.
CCP has not made new player retention a priority; they have paid some attention to it, but one can hardly call it a priority when new players still are not being taught basic gameplay mechanics like how to use D Scan, probe launchers, what crimewatch is/how Safety functions, or how to interface with the regional market. All of these features are left to players to discover manually or with aide from Rookie Help - where, surprise surprise, they can also be introduced to third party tools.
It isn’t a little bit of maintenance, and you still have not demonstrated how making these features available within the client will encourage player retention (new or old).
You keep ignoring that the fundamental issue related to these tools is not access, it is awareness. Putting them in game does not change that. Focus on fixing the actual problem.
If the NPE made mention along the way about 3rd party tools and/or the new citizen forums, that would go a long way better than trying to shoehorn all the 3rd party stuff into Eve. Especially since most of the 3rd party stuff, most new players won’t use for a while, if at all.
