New player - frustrated with documentation

Council Of Stellar Management Assembly Hall
1

Hi,

I have been playing for a few months, and read some articles from EVE U’s wiki and some official eveonline.com articles. They are all a mess. We need a real (and updated) manual.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/80237087/ I get concorded for repairing an Orca in the same fleet and not war eligible corp in hi sec. It does not make sense, but the GM insists it was that way ‘for a long time now’ despite multiple articles going back for years stating otherwise. https://www.eveonline.com/article/pnlesq/war-war-sometimes-changes
and the tables in https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203268591-Criminal-Timer lead me to believe that I would just be put in suspect status. The GM’s are unapologetic concerning having all this misinformation online.

So my complaint is twofold:

  1. Fix the documentation! A single set of game mechanics should be published and obsolete removed or marked as obsolete.

  2. Fix remote support. Inheriting all timers, suspect settings, etc would be fine and is exactly what I was expecting. Being instakilled for supporting my own was not and does not make sense on multiple levels.

Why am I posting this here? The GM told me to. :stuck_out_tongue:

1 Like
2

we suggest that support pilots in highsec engage their safety at either green or yellow levels to prevent unintentional

Problem solved…if you are in HS and not switched to SAFE then you are just asking for trouble IF you start doing morally flexible things or don’t know the rules…

3

Problem not solved. Eveonline.com documents state you inherit timers such as suspect, so it made sense that I had to lower my safety level. How am I supposed to know the rules if every piece of documentation on the rules is different? Just guess and hope my 2bil ship does not blow up? I kind of expected a 10 y/o game to be more mature in its development than that.

4

So you are talking about this page then that stated:

April 2019

  • Removal of neutral assistance

and

After the April release, the penalty for direct targeted neutral assistance meeting the conditions above AND occurring within highsec will become a criminal flag and CONCORD response. The safety system will prevent the activation of the targeted assistance modules under these conditions, so we suggest that support pilots in highsec engage their safety at either green or yellow levels to prevent unintentional CONCORDOKKEN.

What is not clear about that?

How about you cut 'n paste the EXACT passages that contradict each other as that is your main point on contention.

EDIT

And again, you were flying with a yellow or red safety in HS…that was mistake #1 unless you were planning for shenanigans…

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5

I did not think ratting would be considered shenanigans. This was a ratting ship defending an Orca.
How did I rat with this ship? Warp to emerging conduit, warp within 100km of the second rock to the right across from the warp-in point, emp away (well outside of the warp-in zone for other players so they don’t accidently get hit). Also, I read that remote assistance would make me suspect, so it makes sense I would have lowered safety.

Well, your article is a few months old.

I saw this, which was updated Nov 2019:
https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203268571-Suspect-Timer which in turn referred me back to this:
https://www.eveonline.com/article/introducing-the-new-and-improved-crimewatch
EDIT: see tables, displaying in detail that remote assistance just causes suspect status

So really old and new articles agree and kind of skipped the one article that reflects what the server actually does. How can this possibly be considered clear?

edit2:
I looked at your article and it was one I read and was one of the reasons I thought it was ok to repair.

  1. is involved in a war (including normal wars or FW)
  2. does not share a corp/alliance (or FW side if the war in question is the FW war) with the assistor
  3. is engaged in PVP (has a capsuleer logoff timer)

These are the three conditions you left out of your post. You have to have all 3 for a concord response. 1 and 2 did not apply, but I got a concord response anyway.

6

Ok…you’re not doing what I asked so I’m not wasting my time any more…

7

You missed my edits?

8

you posted the links, it would help to see what the exact wording is that you read that is contradicting. Yes this is EVE, and sometimes the DEVS mess around, but Runa wants to see the EXACT word for word PARAGRAPHS that you say are contradicting. She’s not gonna take the time to go through two different links, to attempt to figure out what you are talking about.

According to EVE Uni
CONCORD will respond to the following list of player activities.

When your corporation or alliance is at war, the capsuleer log-off timer can become an issue if you ever fly with people who aren’t in your corporation or alliance. Because in order to assist someone with a capsuleer log-off timer who is at war will require anyone that isn’t in the same alliance or corporation to turn your safety to disable safety (red) and go Icon timer criminal.png Criminal in high security space, or disable safety (yellow) in low security space and go Icon timer suspect.png Suspect.

Similarly for people involved with Faction Warfare, you will be able to assist people on the same side as you are (unless they are in a normal war or in a limited engagement), but otherwise suffer the same limitations as with normal wars.

Whenever you remotely assist someone you will automatically inherit all the combat timers of the one you’re assisting, which includes Icon timer non-capsuleer.png Non-Capsuleer Log-Off Timer, Icon timer capsuleer.png Capsuleer Log-Off Timer and Icon timer weapons.png Weapons Timer. The time left will be whatever the recipient of your assistance has left, so if someone has 22 seconds left of their weapon timer when you assist them, your inherited weapon timer will also have 22 seconds left, assuming you don’t have a weapon timer of your own with more than 22 seconds left on it.

Apart from inheriting timers, naturally legality puts itself on top of that, regulating what actions are allowed based on your safety settings and if not blocked by those settings cause you to get a Icon timer suspect.png Suspect or Icon timer criminal.png Criminal timer.

Even when you’re at peace there is a chance that timers might come into play. If someone enters a limited engagement, like if you make or suffer an unprovoked attack by someone in low and high security space, then any assistance to the person involved (with a limited engagement) would require logistics to turn their safety to disable safety (yellow) and go suspect. Once someone goes suspect it would force the other logi and everyone else who wants to lend assistance to go suspect as well. While being a suspect is fairly trivial in low security space, it presents a number of issues if you then travel back into high security space while the timer is still active.

9

Runa made clear she has no intention of helping from her first post, then continued with insults and such. I DID post a quote. As I said, I am new. That means I do not know how to make it look pretty in the posts on this forum like Runa does. I am sorry if my tone sounds mean; I am just getting increasingly frustrated with this.

"

  1. is involved in a war (including normal wars or FW)
  2. does not share a corp/alliance (or FW side if the war in question is the FW war) with the assistor
  3. is engaged in PVP (has a capsuleer logoff timer)

After the April release, the penalty for direct targeted neutral assistance meeting the conditions above AND occurring within highsec will become a criminal flag and CONCORD response. The safety system will prevent the activation of the targeted assistance modules under these conditions, so we suggest that support pilots in highsec engage their safety at either green or yellow levels to prevent unintentional CONCORDOKKEN.
"

The Eve U article you posted also states:
if you make or suffer an unprovoked attack by someone in low and high security space, then any assistance to the person involved (with a limited engagement) would require logistics to turn their safety to disable safety (yellow) and go suspect. Once someone goes suspect it would force the other logi and everyone else who wants to lend assistance to go suspect as well. While being a suspect is fairly trivial in low security space, it presents a number of issues if you then travel back into high security space while the timer is still active.

This is the kind of thing that lead me to believe that I would go suspect, not get instakilled. If the documentation was clear, consistent and in one place this would not have happened.


"
Providing remote assistance to Suspects, Criminals, outlaws or players in a limited engagement will also result in a Criminal Timer, with the respective CONCORD reaction in High Security Space.
"
This is the opposite of what the other documents I quoted above state; you get instakilled without regard to corporate or fleet status in hi-sec. This is what actually happens in-game and it is the last couple of lines in the article.

The corresponding article ‘suspect timer’ https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/203268571 states at the bottom :

" Players can find more information about the Suspect Timer and other Crimewatch timers in the ‘Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch’ dev blog."

This time I got the images I mentioned to inbed.

Tz4dFFK.png1306×917 73.7 KB

logo2_flags2consequences.png1411×957 78 KB

The important issue is the confusing inconsistency in the documentation. The fact that you are asking me to look up exact quotes rather than just say ‘the actual policy is at such-and-such url’ is proof of this point. There is no one, clear, central source of all things Eve. You have to scour ‘articles’ and ‘support’ and ‘forums’ and ‘dev blogs’ and wiki’s and hope you found the info that actually reflects the current state of the server.

10

:roll_eyes:

11

“Problem solved…if you are in HS and not switched to SAFE then you are just asking for trouble IF you start doing morally flexible things or don’t know the rules…”

“you were planning for shenanigans…”

“I’m not wasting my time any more…”

So I ask, why are you the one rolling your eyes?

12

Which one of those hurt your feelings because it was an insult?

13

‘Morally flexable’ ‘waste of time’ and ‘shenanigans’ are generally considered insults. If you did not mean them as such, then I guess I am really confused. :wink:

‘Don’t know the rules’ is kind of the point of my post. I tried doing some due-diligence reading and came to the wrong conclusion regardless. There really needs to be come consolidation of the documentation and clearly marking what is obselete if not removing it outright.

14

I apologize. This is a help forum and I am acting like everyone is trolling me. That just goes to show how bad my judgement is right now. I have been on antibiotics for pneumonia and feel terrible; I should not be taking it out on you. So again, I apologize.

15

No problem…I kinda figured you weren’t yourself and exercised (great) restraint in my replies.

@Jerry_Falcone 's reply was perfect BTW.

Simply put, if you are in HS, always be green or you may face consequences you don’t expect or even fully understand. A long time ago I fell for the Jet-Can scam and while I only lost a little Venture, boy was I fuming…then I learnt the rules.

Not to say that CCP can’t clean things up but they are really not that bad especially if you go with just the most recent doc.

Any how…GL, TY for the apology and fly safe®.

o7

16

Thank you for your understanding. :slight_smile:

1 Like
17

“a few months”

“2 bil ship”

Obviously, you’ve either slaved hard to get that first 2bil or you invested real money. Consider flying less expensive ships and/or tackle the learning curve. We all had to do it and if everyone was spoonfed the info, there’d be a lot less “content”. The information is there, it just requires a bit more engagement from you.

18

I wasn’t trolling you, and at times on the forums, it can seem like some of the people will troll you (or they actually are trolling you), when anything is in text, its hard to find context in what is being said.

CCP is notorious for one month having a new policy etc, and within a few months, flip it around. EVE Uni Wiki, tries their best to keep updated (which is where all my info i posted from several articles is from). As @Runa_Yamaguchi mentioned however, is to really keep an eye on the most updated docs when it pertains to anything. Keep in mind, that while some of us have been playing several years, there are some who are in the forums, who don’t even play, and may not remember changes made etc, (and or just wanna troll you to get a reaction)

19

ignore that link completely… its 7 years old.

What you really wanna do, is pay attention to this:

When your corporation or alliance is at war, the capsuleer log-off timer can become an issue if you ever fly with people who aren’t in your corporation or alliance. Because in order to assist someone with a capsuleer log-off timer who is at war will require anyone that isn’t in the same alliance or corporation to turn your safety to disable safety (red) and go Icon timer criminal.png Criminal in high security space, or disable safety (yellow) in low security space and go Icon timer suspect.png Suspect.

if they had a log off timer, you would have adopted that, and you would have had to set your safety to red in Hisec (which you were in), to assist them.

What I’m really more curious about is, why are you using a combat battleship as a logi? When there are more capable and less expensive ships for Logi?

20

“I wasn’t trolling you, and at times on the forums, it can seem like some of the people will troll you (or they actually are trolling you), when anything is in text, its hard to find context in what is being said.”

I understand now, so I apologize for being rude to you as well. It seems i was reading everything in the worst possible way, which is not helpful or appropriate on my part.