But what’s the point of it? That’s what I don’t get. It’s either a structure that is difficult to kill, or one that is impossible to defend. In either of these situations it’s completely pointless. Why would anyone want to run a wardec group when a couple of bombers can just take down your structures? Why would a defender bother when they have to take down a structure that’s too easily defended?
Please don’t be offended Whitehound, I didn’t want to add even more to this thread, but in essence you’re right. Without an easily implemented change to wardecs, CCP won’t touch it with a barge pole
That has never stopped them before. Why is it a hard roadblock now?
The agency actually made considerable cosmetic increases and cost a lot of code hours to create.
Doesn’t sound hard to me. Find initiate for war code. Locate isk payment. Replace with deployed object being fueled and activated. Maybe I’m just crazy because that sounds like the most logical and effortless thing to do.
That is for CCP to decide. Not me. Not you. Do not become the voice of god and let god decide what they do to their game.
An existing mechanic that is flawed and one sided which has had it’s teeth removed by other pieces of the code being deleted.
Have you even played Eve Online? Build tree is freakishly complicated and it’s getting more insane to figure out things by the patch. Moon mining for example just deleted the status quo and replaced it with you have to take risk in space to aquire moon goo… Guess that CCP is in favor of putting effort and risk in space for you to gain benefits… or not… they’ll be reverting it back to the easier thing since you think it should be easier.
Criticism of the idea is acceptable. I have no problem with that.
I feel increasing the cost of finding war targets to be unimportant since the objective of war is to actually fight wars. Granted you don’t need to fight to declare war or even actually take action to fight but that’s entirely a personal choice thing. I’d just rather follow CCP’s “put the risk in space and lets see what happens” current path.
Still we agree the intel device SHOULD exist at least. So that’s a step better than denying everything.
I will agree we disagree on it being the cost for war instead of a benefit to war.
Current upwell structres have a 5000 damage cap attached to them. Excess damage is discarded. This guarantees a lot of prepwork can be done for any upwell structure. Failure to clear puts the structure into repair mode which then makes any attack upon it that much harder.
(pardon. wrong word. Should have been repair instead of reinforcement)
The smallest upwell structure we currently have: The Raitaru.
It has 4.8 million hp for shields, armor, and hull. This takes a minimum of 16 minutes of shooting to push the shields down. We’re not making an upwell structure so the damage cap can be lowered because it has less space to hit. We can maintain the 16 minute fight timer without putting it into a situation where nobody can actually attack it from a smaller corp. I want to give both the attackers and defenders a chance to fight.
High sec sir. Bombers can’t bomb in high sec.
Oh look war targets are attacking our intel device. TIME TO PLAY POD THE NEWBIE! Shame the device isn’t about fighting back but just gathering intel.
The Agency brings all the existing interfaces into one window, which does make it easier, and not more complicated. Still, some players are asking to bring the old agent finder back, because the Agency is still not quite on par when it comes to usability. I’m guessing we will see a few more changes here before everyone is happy.
Yes, I have played EVE Online… The industry is intentionally complicated. It’s meant to be like this, because it’s all it can provide for being a profession. It then always has been this way and only seen additions to it, but existing stuff never got more complicated. Some of it was removed like the T2 blueprints, when they could also just have left them in. Also, if the complexity of the industry profession was a reason to change wardecs, could one equally argue to make industry easier. It only shows how fundamentally different these two are.
Moon mining was changed, because it was a passive but also a massive income source for large alliances. I agree with you that here they could have just left it as is and not tied it in with structures, but the passiveness of the income was complained about for years and was real. It was also a motor for many wars over valuable moons, because of how easy it was to make ISKs with it.
Ok, so lets assume that the structure has timers and an appropriate damage cap. Congratulations, you’ve just created another upwell style structure that very few in the game enjoy destroying. This is the main issue with tying wardecs to structures in general. Nobody actually likes attacking them. They’re a necessary evil in low and nullsec since they got rid of the POS. In hisec, structures are littering the place and I would wager put quite a strain on the servers.
This shows quite some ignorance of hisec operations I’m afraid. The most efficient way of taking down a POCO currently is with a couple of bombers. They put out a ridiculous amount of dps against static structures for their cost, and can just cloak up and warp off if a wartarget enters local. You would only use a vindicator or similar if you’re sure you can fight off what comes after you.
Oh, and you seem to be an coding expert so I suggest CCP hire you immediately to solve all their “legacy code” issues. CCP have consistently said that old features are difficult to deal with.
If it doesn’t have “reinforcement” timers then it’s useless unless you can cover all timezones and have someone babysitting it at all times - not exactly riveting gameplay sitting next to a structure all day.
I “asked for it” because it because without these features, or another substitute, it’s a completely useless system. Without it being able to be defended, no wardec corp is going to continue operating. If it has the features I suggest, nobody will want to bother attacking it. What you are proposing just doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.
Moving the goalposts doesn’t survive scrutiny. X is wrong because it lacks Y and will still be wrong even if it does. If you begin with the premise that you want something to be wrong forever it will be forever wrong in your opinion if you say so. That would be circular logic where the conclusion is based on itself.
Basically you are exhibiting the very behavior I was talking about in that you are only in for your interest at the expense of the game.
You are damn fine with it if it gives you the watchlist back, but if it asks for you to actually put into form your war dec and be commited to it in material form…. Oh then suddenly the idea is not so great.
You played a pretty devious game. Pretending to discuss the potential flaws/fixs for a War structure or War Room, alongside intel gathering structure. And at the first sign of you being able to get your cake without putting anything on the table, you act like the War structure or War Room are no longer possible.
Deploying a structure is not that complicated, the process can even be automated for the player if they don’t know how to do it, at extra cost and without removing the material cost.
So no, BOTH the War structure or WarRoom idea, and the intel gathering structure or module are in for consideration.
No. This is what you think I want. And I don’t care what else you rant. I have written further down in my comment why I wrote it. When you cannot accept it then you’re only a troll to me.
I could not find @Whitehound quote where he suggested that wars were somehow never ever about stationary objects but always player ships. So quoted myself instead.
Anyway, dude. Open your Eyes instead of playing the rhetorical game. You try to deduce what you want to be instead of observingwhat actually is.
If you really think that War targets are not afraid of Wardecs in High-sec, you are out of phase with a sizeable portion of the EVE community.
I’ve never seen them discussed in a positive light, their effects on players is significantly bad for the game and its active player count, people are afraid of them to the point of even refusing to play. You cannot have it worse than mechanics that encourage players to not play, that’s anti-thesis to everything the game should try to do, and it’s simply not viable.
More importantly, if you think what is really getting people on wardecs is losing their ships, the entire rest of the EVE universe proves you wrong.
People are not afraid to lose ships, what they really are afraid is lopsided fights, and they have shown that times and times again. Hell, the whole phenomenon of risk-aversion comes from that, plenty of people are ready to throw ship after ships at you if they think it will be you and at best 2 or 3 more people, instead of you and 20 more.
Wars in High-sec are lopsided in that the attacker is not constrained by space (unlike in Null, FW, J-space), and they act in a territory where targets are less versed in the art of aggression (again, I’d love to see how all of those wardec corps would fare just in Caldari FW space, right next door).
This creates a context and culture that discourages fighting back. And this is why people becoming scared of wardecs. They feel constrained both strategically and militarily.
They might be wrong, but this is what they feel, more importantly this is what the mechanics lead them to feel.
My suggestion to limit war dec to a structure per system addresses that, it constrains the war to territories instead of making it something global. Players can know where the war is active and where they can expect the enemy, they can login if they don’t plan to fight back and work around the decced systems. Plus it organically limits the capacity to blanket wardec by increasing the points of attacks for the people you wardec the more wardecs you have, you can have as many targets as you want in as many systems. You will just have to man up and defend those structures from the increasing number of attackers, which give btw gives an increased chance for people targeted to fight back.
This won’t make everyone into a warrior but this will maybe make one or two more people go like “maybe we should try to win this”.
Actually, this can be considered an Upwell Structure, just one that would be of category Small.
Also what is the problem with having reinforcement out of attacking?
I also want to signal the alternative of limiting the War Declaration to a Service Module. This would ask for different types of that service modules (considering one of the things we want to avoid is people feeling like they have to down Medium, L, XL structures to end wars), for example a WarRoom that can war dec an entire alliance could ask for a L or XL structure.
Gonna be honest this thread has turned to ■■■■, we have people arguing back and fourth with set opinions that won’t be changed.
Non war deccers keep suggesting stupid ideas that in reality wouldn’t work whereas war deccers (like me who has done this for over 5 years) know all the ideas are stupid and there is no way to ‘fix’ war decs as they’re not broken, if anything it couldn’t be worse for attackers. (Locates crap, watch list, corp hopping, lower scan res) leading to excessive hub/pipe camping and mass decs.
Only reason for current meta is CCP forcing a change in our playstyle by consistently changing parts of the game.
I am going to be brutally honest then, you think they are not broken, yet most hisec defenders think they are totally broken and a complete waste of time. There is no common ground between attackers and defenders at all on this subject and the arrogance and inability to look for any common ground by the war dec community is very evident in this thread by you and a number of other posters…
You want it left as it is because it enables you to farm almost totally risk free.
You are totally boring as content, I would not even bother to pass wind in the direction of most war deckers as it is so utterly pointless.
For example your alliance currently has my alliance war decked and not a single one of us cares one iota…, You are totally irrelevant and your content is just not interesting at all and that is the truth of it, yawn…
Then why are you so keen on changing wardecs? If no one give a ■■■■, then why the hell are you so bothered about wardecs?
It’s a pipedream that this will change anything. Wardec defenders will not bother with the structures because they either can’t (i.e. they’re not strong enough), or can’t be bothered.
This thread is a waste of bandwidth to be perfectly honest