[news] Nugoeihuvi and Wiyrkomi Clash Over Comedy Holodrama, or; on reputation

While certainly not the most momentous news of late (the situations in Rens and Lirsautton are far more worth noting, and acting on!),this one struck me as it’s an excellent demonstration of the intersection of legalism and social standing in the State.

To discuss, and acknowledging that there are many cultural differences between the various Megacorporations which will mean my perspective will not necessarily represent the views and understandings of those from Hyasyoda, Wiyrkomi, or really any other of the Megacorporations, I thought we’d delve a little bit into this.

The first thing an outsider should know is that reputation is important, vitally so. Reputation will determine who you socialize with, who recommends you, who contracts with you. Often, this is why formality is viewed as so essential in the State: a formal, respectable treatment of others is viewed essential both in showing due respect to others, and in being respectable, yourself! At the same time, reputation isn’t a matter of law. It’s social: the respect and admiration of your peers, the unspoken network of debt and obligation that forms the basis for effective communal action, the view that favors you ask will be repaid, and favors you grant warrant return. It is built over the span of years, and is not easily changed, unless you yourself doom your own reputation by hidden deed.

At the same time, not all life can be rigidly formalized. We are, after all, humans and not machines. Comradery is founded on shared work and shared pleasure both. Even in this, however, there are lines not to be crossed. Of course, what is right and respectable is a matter of place. Watching a Mind Clash bout at a bar, or communal baths, or any such thing may be right place, depending on local custom, on the traditions and habits of your peers, of how strenuously you work, not just the appropriately driven actions of the workplace.

Now, there is the matter of slight, of insult, of smearing others. Often, this is a matter dealt with by in-group pressure. If one crosses a line, if one behaves too disrespectfully, that is a mark against and will be felt; but likewise is the response of the person slighted an indicator of their character. Defensiveness, brittleness in personality does not demonstrate right thought. Unfortunately, I can’t explore and explain this too deeply. It’s a soft system! So much feeds into reputation and standing that any rule would have exceptions to the point of uselessness. Prescriptiveness belies our human nature.

Of course, none of this rises to court action. Reputation is, after all, an informal thing, and the courts are for matters of contract and arbitration.

This is where we pass from reputation to actual damage, to the realm that is more universally considered the realm of slanderous or libelous acts, and to the challenge put forward by Wiyrkomi against NOH. The damage to reputation is so difficult to quantify! And how could pithy words to damage to a thing the Seituoda build for themselves in a labor over decades and centuries? For if words leave a mark, it is because a mark is easily left: unless Wiyrkomi can prove material damage, or a deeply orchestrated campaign that actively undermines a reputation justly earned. Fortunately for Wiyrkomi, the standard for guilt is lower than in a criminal case.

More likely is that Wiyrkomi’s complaint will, if it is well-supported by investigation and discovery, be borne out by seeming efforts by NOH to distribute the material to Wiyrkomi citizens, as that speaks more directly to seditious intent, which crosses into a new sort of action entirely. There one could more readily argue intent to cause material damage.

Still, this will be a fascinating test of the limits of the State’s contractual framework, and the intersection between social standing and material wealth. I look forward to seeing how this plays out, and how the tribunal rules on these matters.

(and, in the meantime, I might nudge the esteemed Tuulinen-haan or Adams-haan to give their read on things, given our different experiences!)


Excuse me, but that’s an utmost hypocrisy if such a dishonorable slanderer like Priano tells others to be respectable. When we hear about disrespectable behavior and attacks on reputation, it’s Makoto’s name who comes the first. Did anyone forget all these lies Makoto was spreading? Did anyone forget how she lost her honor, evading responsibility for her misdeeds?

But you did.

And that is highly incorrect. You’re probably just being defensive for your previous crimes. Reputation is a commodity, and honor is more valuable than life. People should be able to defend themselves from groundless accusations, like one of those you were speaking about me. And you’re really not in a position after what you did to tell it doesn’t rise to court action. Wiyrkomi must defend their honor, and unlike you, an egger hiding behind CONCORD, NOH can be brought to answer.

You don’t need to prove any material damage. All you need to prove that the fact of damaging reputation had place. That the information was spread to public, and that it was about them. They don’t even have to prove it was lie, unless NOH will bring some proofs that it was truth.

I wish good luck to Wiyrkomi, however, honestly, their chances of winning are lower. For example, you was spreading libel directly about me, and proof of your guilt is pretty much trivial by bringing the citation from the media where you spread them. In this case, however, NOH doesn’t spread direct libel about Wiyrkomi and they have to prove that it was about them. I wish them best of luck in this affair!

Especially, since there’s another thing that requires an urgent attention.

Putting such sort of anomalous, perverted and abnormal indecent relationship in a public show by itself must be prohibited. It’s not a Federation and we must be sure to protect ourselves from such degeneracy.

I suppose I haven’t been invited, but circumstances have compelled me into expertise in this sort of thing, so won’t you humor me if Quafe weighs in? This is not an official opinion, of course, but the degree to which its very public nature may be taken as a winking hint of officialness in its own right is interesting. I invite you to draw suitable conclusions based on your own experience.

Consider the specific medium of the trouble, first off.

A short-run holodrama is a glancing blow even with the most direct, most heinous of accusations. And admittedly incest is a serious one, but if those same characters became slavers, or conducted an orgy of some humiliating sort, the details of the audience response would amount to the same basic thing, this being: oh, those Wiyrkomi people are at it again.

I am saying that the intended target is not any member of Wiyrkomi specifically, or even the public opinion of Wiyrkomi in general, but a bit of housekeeping for NOH aimed at a public perception that Wiyrkomi cannot self-regulate appropriately. Self-maintenance within any mega is of enormous importance, and I say that primarily for non-Caldari people who may be reading.

Now, consider that given the medium, it will be replaced by some other glancing reinforcement of some notion in three days. One that suggests Hyasyoda is out of touch, or that being a batch child is embarrassing when dealing with non-Caldari. I’m pulling things from my ear there, and I don’t mean to guess at NOH’s message. I only mean to say that is isn’t an accusation in any real sense that anyone in Wiyrkomi has commmited incest. It’s a metaphor.

I’ve gone on a bit, haven’t I? I’m sorry. Marketing is basically my job ant my hobby, so I do that.


I am no expert on Caldari law in particular, but it does look like Wiyrkomi has a foot or two to stand on in this case. If the show’s cast resembles their corporation sufficiently, then it would be enough for a conviction. And furthermore, their reactions in that very article would not help their case at all in front of any independent judge.

“It’s understandable that the Seituoda family would be sensitive, given the no doubt baseless rumors about the nature of their familial relationships.”

This bit, in particular, is not going to help considering the contents of the leaked script, especially considering that NOH was also responsible for an earlier scandal on this very topic.

This type of libel and slander can also have a very real impact on a corporation’s bottomline, and I am sure Wiyrkomi will be able to produce a calculation detailing exactly how much profit was lost due to damages to their reputation.

It all depends on how much the Rekotaa actually resemble the Seituoda, but I would give Wiyrkomi good odds here.


First, a response to Ms. Kim, and then to the topic at hand.

Ms. Kim; I’d wagered that you’d reply somewhere within half an hour to two hours of this posting. What luck! You posted precisely in the middle of my estimated range for you.

For those following along at home, the lies, insults, etc, are as so:

  • A joking exchange with one Ms. Saissore that Ms. Kim was at the Siege of Haatomo with a Basilisk to provide logistics support to Provist-hijacked ships escaping the station; or, alternatively, that she was in a Dominix. If I recall correctly, she took umbrage at these insults and indicated she was in a Scorpion.
  • Calling Ms. Kim a Provist, which she sought to refute on a technical line, as she was never a member of the Providence Directorate.
  • Various negative comments on her mental state or stability.

I leave consideration of these various statements to the viewer.

Naturally, however, all this has resulted in a wide-ranging feud that will soon cross four years in duration. Honestly, I’m impressed.

Ms. Kim, what I say is this: I am at times outspoken. Often, I maintain proper decorum. Sometimes, I breach it to a shameful degree. Those who are long-running witnesses to my behavior can likely confirm this. I seek in all things to be judicious and respectful, but some very few people are able to get beneath my skin and provoke sharp, at times excessive reactions. You are one of those people. This does me no service. For my outspokenness, I apologize to those I treat poorly.

At the same time, Ms. Kim, you must realize that your behavior is so often out of scale. You seethe, fume, and spit venom at the slightest opportunity. No damage can be done to your reputation, for it is a reputation you earn with so many of the actions you undertake.

Now. With that said, back to the topic at hand.

Insofar as the allegations of libel are concerned, the question isn’t whether insult is done. Certainly, it’s done! But insult alone doesn’t necessarily merit a court case. The questions are of malice and damage.

The issue I take with damage and bottom line is this: burden of proof for damage done rests on the complainant, but the defendant can easily raise questions. After all, is the loss of revenue truly because of a satirical show, or the quality of workmanship, or seasonal or annual adjustments in a host of economic factors, or changing standards of education, or demographic shifts in the workforce, or alternative services and goods, or…? The standard of proof is lower than in a criminal case, but it is still an undertaking.

This is why the essential part of proof of NOH’s effort to smuggle the show back into the State, and specifically to the Wiyrkomi citizenry. If NOH’s work were purely outside the State, damage would be so much harder to establish. Inside the State, and with evidence of NOH’s effort brought to light, then Wiyrkomi can much more easily establish malicious intent, which eases the burden overall.

Ultimately, though, judgment rests with the business tribunal! It will be educational, either way.


Oh, we all know that these weren’t just “negative comments”, that were outright lies and libel.

Well, I am not really “feuding” with you. I gave you chance for a fight, you refused. Since then you were periodically coming up with more libel, while I was only pointing you on what you have done.

I myself would never say a bad word or use ad hominem first against a neutral, so I had actually to look up, how did I manage to get beneath a skin of such… “judicious” and “respectful” person. And I found it!

I have invited your former alliance to the largest Caldari capsuleer coalition! And with that you started your libel and insulting outrage. I don’t think I ever had an “honor” to discuss anything with you prior to that. And you know what? I am NOT going to bring apologies for that. I just offered olive branch and I was doing MY JOB to bring Caldari together, even if I still considered that alliance untrustworthy. Moreover, after that your alliance actually joined us. And you after some time left it.

Whatever it is, it is certainly neither judicious, nor respectful, and definitely not a proper decorum, especially as a representative of an alliance in a negotiation with one of the coalition directors.

I don’t understand your desire to make conflicts on bare ground, especially if all you do is spread libel, evading any sort of proper confrontation, would it be by means of Honor or Justice. But as we all can see, you just did that one more time, saying even more libel about me. Yes, your words about me are absolutely groundless accusation, just as could be expected from you, for all these four years you keep doing that.

As for my reputation, I have a very good reputation among allies, and very terrible one among our enemies. The world is split in half, and it all depends on which side you take.

It most certainly does.
Any insult can constitute the court case, provided the insulted will care about it. Especially if it is insult in public media, that almost certainly guarantees a tribunal session.

As for malice, it can never be proven or refuted, while the fact of insult can. You don’t judge for malice, at least we don’t do, since we aren’t Black Eagles or other thought police. We do judge for the fact, and the fact is insult.

As for the damage, you don’t have to prove the damage, unless you want them to compensate that damage in a monetary value, in addition to charges of libel.

The slander itself is a criminal case.

If Wiyrkomi has sued, they probably feel confident enough to be able to win the case, and I agree if what is written in the article is true.

“When people run a search on GalNet for the Wiyrkomi Corporation, the fictional Kurashinni comes up in the top results,” Wiyrkomi Senior Executive Counsel Ikane Hadonei commented. “Searching the Seituoda name generates artwork of Rekotaa family members engaged in obscene acts. Even if the conflation wasn’t intended, it is clearly happening, and it is hurting our bottom line and our reputation.”

Corporations have very complex mathematics that they use to calculate losses from factors. It should be very easy for them to separate losses from “common factors” such as poor product quality from losses incurred due to bad publicity from this specific show if the effect is that widespread.

Given that, whether the profits are lost within the State or outside of the State should not matter. A third party has given a false impression of a corporation, sullying their good name in the process, which in turn results in a loss of revenue as public perception of the company is negatively effected.

If all of the above is true, then Wiyrkomi is entitled to compensation for lost profits unless it can be proven that the allegations are, in fact, true.

Certainly, it helps if NOH has engaged in such blatant acts as trying to smuggle copies of the show to Wiyrkomi employees, which would be a monumentally stupid thing to do. If Wiyrkomi can prove the copy originated from a NOH employee and that this employee was acting on instructions from his superiors, of course.

But I suspect this is going to come down to a long drawn out debate on whether or not the Rekotaa family is sufficiently similar to the Seituoda that compensation is warranted. If the audience is seeing similarities that are not there, that is not NOH’s fault. If the similarities are obvious enough to determine it was done with intent, then NOH is on the hook.


Ms. Vuld; considering the comment on ‘Seituoda steel,’ I think intent is to create similarities!

Mostly, my intent is to stress that insult alone is not enough. Winds know some of us can find insult in how another person sips tea, after all! There are certain thresholds to cross. But, ultimately, I do agree with you that the case has merit.


There is a significant difference between offensive behaviour that you might perceive as “insult” and direct slander of a person, calling them names or stating false facts about a person.

So if you start drinking a tea in a restaurant making a sound of malfunctioning turbojet engine, you most likely will offend all the people around you, yet you will be simply asked to leave. But if you will make a claim that a waitress who offered you said tea that she’s a “madwoman” or “gurista”, or something else from your repertoire, that can guarantee you a summon to a court.

Or, better, don’t. It’s not about her. Don’t let her make it about her. That’s all she ever does anyway. Just ignore her.


That’s the plan, after that first.

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Oh, stop trolling. We all know who you are. It was only about Makoto and her crimes, not about me. It’s her crimes that match the situation she started to talk about. It’s her, who brought hypocrisy. Stop your foolish show here and now, becasue facts are not on your side anyway.

Oh! Well, I can certainly offer my opinion on this ongoing legal matter, in any case. First off, allow me to thank you for initiating the discourse on the subject. I do believe it is important for there to be some measure of dialogue, especially on a topic as broad as this.

Yes, you are absolutely correct in that each constituent megacorporation of the Caldari State has its own unique cultural elements that complement the overall unified ‘Caldari’ culture, such as the worker rating system and the singular language. In regards to a citizen’s professional and personal life, this can vary depending on which megacorporation they hold citizenship with, and whether or not they are directly employed by the megacorporation or through ancillary means such as a subsidiary corporation. For example, those holding Ishukone citizenship have a somewhat different culture to those that hold Hyasyoda citizenship, despite being members of the same political bloc within the State.

Equally so with the concept of reputation in a society such as ours, which is built on the foundation of trustworthiness, co-operation and collaboration, not to mention the merits of steadfastness and devotion to one’s duty that brings a citizen a modicum of respectability amongst their peers. Reciprocation of a polite code of conduct is certainly required not only for a business, but also for dealing with one’s peers for precisely the raisin you have stated. However, I will add that whilst that may not be codified into corporate legislation proper, it is present in a form of ‘unwritten law’. Deviate too much from what is considered compliant behaviour may lead to repercussions for the citizen that does so, at best raising a few eyebrows here and there and at worst leading to isolation along with the accompanied loss of reputation and social standing. Again, this varies from megacorporation to megacorporation.

As for the slinging match between Wirykomi and Nugoeihuvi, to borrow a phrase from my Imperial friends it is ‘nihil nove sub sole’. Really, it is truly nothing new under the sun at all as far as I am concerned, and regardless of the resolution given by the Business Tribunal it shall not cease to be a practice that it utilised by all of the Big Eight. Each megacorporation employs a veritable legion of entities who’s sole purpose in their existence is to promote their own corporate brand over that of their competitors i.e. the other megacorporations. When it is done effectively, as well as supported by a bulwark of legal professionals and the soft culture of a megacorporation in terms of how it is perceived elsewhere in the State, it is truly an art form to see how much one can skirt the line and still evade punishment. Nugoeihuvi and Sukuuvestaa are renowned for their highly effective and pervasive PR campaigns, especially when an opportunity arises to further their own agenda and image ahead of that of their rivals. A notable example of this was when in YC115 elements of the Home Guard paramilitary destroyed two freighters in the New Caldari system, prompting SuVee CEO Kuikiainen Onita to state that it would never have occurred under SuVee’s aegis, gaining both the moral and political high ground as well as slighting the reputation of it’s biggest rival at the same time.

This case will join the ranks of its peers in the Business Tribunal and I cannot foresee anything coming of it in the near future. The fact that NOH and other Megacorporations are persistently engaged in this practice is enough indication that it will continue unabated. Unless Wiyrkomi can prove without a shadow of a doubt that this has impaired their business and their image in a tangible way, that can be proven that is, it is likely that this case will not amount to anything but a means of tying up NOH resources defending themselves in Tribunal hearings and enduring writs and subpoenas for the foreseeable future. Besides, it’s Wiyrkomi and the Seituoda family! Their reputation is almost unimpeachable within the eyes of the Caldari, with the deeds that they have undertaken for the benefit of this State and the Caldari people reflecting that. And I sincerely doubt that any amount of NOH publications or procedurals or whatever they produce will significantly impair that.

I will say though, the contents of a copy of NOH-MAG magazine will always be a matter of contention no matter the target. It doesn’t make it any less entertaining through. The “Wiyr-Kiss-Me, Ty-U-Aul-Up” issue back in YC113 certainly did so for me anyway, although the contents were absolutely outrageous to read.


That’s really not what they have to prove. The damage to reputation can be only stated, what have to be proven is the fact of attack on their reputation. There are two possibilities. First, NOH indeed was using the show to indirectly accuse Seituoda family indirectly. Then then NOH and the makers of said show will be in a deep trouble. The second variant - NOH were just trying to push their new show in the market that was closed to them regardless and accusations of similarities are just paranoia. In that case Wiyrkomi will have to pay CBT for the work being done, and considering it will be investigation for several months, the volume can be significant.

What I do hope myself, is that the CBT will look through the show and will arrest it regardless were there slanderous information about the competing Megacorporation or no - just because the show references to indecent perversions (incest) that should have no place within borders of Caldari State. Really, leave that crap to gallentean swines who enjoy such sort of filth.

Thinnest skin award go to the Caldari… or just Kim.

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I dunno, Amy seems to have indicated there are sorts of filth DK enjoys, so…


Ladies and gentlemen, I don’t know how much Arrendis is hurting from losing to me in space when I came to specified by her NULL sec system, but I’d like to warn you to take her rants with a huge grain of salt. She was already lying before, for example by claiming I was cutting off people’s hands, and her current claims like I would enjoy some “filth” is a typical and predictable attack from her. Just ignore this person.

I doubt anyone truly cares or minds, unless it is friendly interest.

Don’t worry.


An update! Evidently NOH is trying the old shell game.

The notable thing is that while folding in the face of litigation is a common enough tactic, immediate reincorporation into a new corporation with, broadly speaking, the same assets, personnel, and indeed broadcast plan makes this a case of facile legal sleight-of-hand. I can’t help but think that this opens up NOH to greater exposure, given that I can only imagine discovery will turn out evidence of executive involvement in the plan from outside the studio. In a very real way, this demonstrates that NOH believes they have legal exposure; if they didn’t, they’d not engage in the shell game. At the same time, the bet on Seituoda pride is risky, because it could very well be seen as a further insult by Wiyrkomi.

I can only assume Wiyrkomi will seek an injunction and then seek discovery to further demonstrate mal intent on the part of NOH.


Hah, Seituoda thinks he has it bad, I have somehow become some kind of edgy cult underground figure in the State because of Nugoeihuvei production studios. If I tried to sue them for all the lies and slander they put out about me I would probably end up in litigation for the next ten thousand years.

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