Next Summit Brainstorm - Ship Balance


(elitatwo) #21

Oh hell no, the Navy Drake is different, not better.

The Nighthawk is fine the way she is. The Prophecy and Damnation need a tad more damage, maybe 2.5% per level, so from 5 to 7.5% per level for the Damnation and something cool for the Prophecy like a +5% HAM damage per level.


(Stitch Kaneland) #22

The Nighthawk does need some help. There is a pretty consistent theme for command ships though.

There is 1 well applying short range option and a longer range option.

Caldari:
Vulture is long range
Nighthawk is close range (application bonus)

Amarr:
Damnation is long range
Absolution is short range (although doesnt have application bonus)

Minmatar:
Sleipnir is long range
Claymore is application bonused short range

Gallente:
Astarte is long range
Eos is short range high application

So if the NH got a velocity bonus, it would skew caldari into having 2 long range ships.

Before the DNI got a buff, i flew a HML NH quite a bit. Its a decent ship, but good lord is it slow. It needs more speed, as currently the DNI runs circles around it (a raven is faster than it).

As far as buffer fits go, a NH is better than a sleipnir. The NH and sleip are both decent gang CS imo. The shield HP bonus is interesting and an additional mid might offset the resist loss so it has higher tank in the end.

I dont think a lot of changes are needed, mainly these key points:

-1 Low, +1 Mid
+fitting
+speed, should be around 1250ish cold

From there we can tinker with the tank stat. Rest is fine though. Its t2 caldari, you may not like it, but every t2 caldari is kin locked except the golem. So its very unlikely that the kinetic stat will change.


(elitatwo) #23

There is no need for that.

Anyhow, speed and agility I am not opposed to.

Then the Vulture will like it.


(Stitch Kaneland) #24

Caldari missile ships need mids to perform well. Its not like minmatar that can armor tank and then have decent mid layout. There is no reason for a caldari BC/CS to have 5 lows and 5 mids when the minmatar missile CS has 6 mids. Caldari are all about shield tank and 5 mids is barely passable in some cases.

The biggest thing the vulture needs is a Ferox nerf.


(Daoden) #25

Gila for sure as it has taken over alot of PvE and become the meta, due in part to medium drone speed and tracking with heavy drone, or better, DPS and tank. On top of that also a huge bonus to missile damage, decent speed and tank either active or passive.


(Mina Sebiestar) #26

Navy battleships

I feel they are not in a good place and will focus on directly buffing them to be more viable for use rather than adjusting their basic variants or trying to copy paste them ie dominix and dominix navy both drone focused just different in color and in basic stats.

I consider this kind of copy paste “bleaching” already “bleak” hulls north of 99% of battleships excel at shooting 2003 era AI that shoot you back with 13 dps and slow boat toward you and fart out blob of them out of citadel to F1 preferably already webd,painted.scramd,pointed,bubbled neuted disrupted and grapled target.

Dominix Navy
10% Drone HP and DMG
7.5% Turret DMG
5(-1) gun slots 6 high slots

WHY: Basic Domi is overbuilt for drones(4 drone bonuses) vs two(and single gun bonus) on a Domi Navy
This makes Basic Domi doing ok DMG with brilliant application and projection fitting guns is neither needed nor required.
This makes Navy Domi higher DMG…and that’s it best use scenario is remained docked with fitting window open staring at high dps number with only DMG mod fitted because fitting issues.
It is sitting on a better platform but ship is “less” not “more” than basic offering.
Changes above boost dmg to compensate for gun loss keeping dmg high gaining uty high and gaining fitting room some.

Armageddon Navy
Same issues as above Basic Arma have better drones/projection overbuilt 4 boni vs 2 on Ngeddon
-remove gun up damage or rof( going dmg rather than rof serves this ship better imo).
2 high slots to play with vamp and neut or both neuts spare fitting room for stronger fits cap booster/battery support.

Typhoon Fleet
Removal of gun bonus asap there is no synergy making them better will oppress rest of minmatar gunships giving ship more PWG to fit AC without gimping your fit or god forbid to attempt to fit artillery will make missile setups just that much better with all that spare PWG to do whatever.
To me this ship is fast and agile with small sig rad it dishes out tons of deeps its pure aggression i “feel” that drone that act same way is unique and gives ship synergy it lacks atm.

7.5% torp/cruise and heavy’s DMG
5% all drones max velocity

Tempest Fleet

5% ROF
7.5% DMG
Low to Mid

WHY: Reversed bonuses against Basic pest it focuses more on alpha and ship will become second next to Maelstrom shield battleship offering from Minmatar lineup.
Honestly what i would do out of this hull is to make it first in game projectile drone hybrid but since this thread is about balance rather than new stuff so there it goes.

Rest of navy battleships i found are largely ok or will address at later edit.


(Wanda Fayne) #27

Finish the module Tiericide please


(Brisc Rubal) #28

This is something I expect we will talk about, but this is about ship balance, rather than module stuff.


(Othello Nightstar) #29

Can’t see anything wrong with those ship balances but don’t fly most so wouldn’t know.
And so just urge caution on all ship changes. If you are going to change t1 t2 t3 non faction ships up to bs level or marauders I wish to know and may have a few things I could say .


(Othello Nightstar) #30

The cost of faction ships keeps them out of my hangers


(Othello Nightstar) #31

Fleet vessels are to expensive to risk flying and I like to fly with no fear of ship loss so only fly something I can afford to lose because I already have built or bought a couple and can see another in my hanger waiting for the one I’m flying to go boom.


(Stitch Kaneland) #32

I’m not sure if this falls in here for “Ship Balance” per se, unless cost is a part of the balancing discusion. But i think navy battleships along with stat rebalance need a rework through LP and pirate battleships need a rework in scarcity. They currently are competing too much with pirate battleships which effects their desirability. Thats not to say if Navy BS were 400m and pirate battleship were 800m, everyone would fly navy ships, but its kind of skewed their cost/isk effectiveness when a pirate battleship will inherently be better in most situations for thet same price. Also, pirate battleship do not align with other pirate cruiser/frigate price increases.

Lets take a short look at navy/pirate comparison in other classes:

Slicer/hookbill/firetail/comet - 14m to 25m (depending on location/LP)

Garmur/Dram/Daredevil/Worm/Cruor - 50-65m

So roughly x2 to x3 more expensive.

Same with navy cruiser to pirate cruiser comparison, in general (again location and LP dependent), going from navy to pirate is x2 to x3 cost increase.

Looking at navy battleships to pirate battleships, in some cases pirate BS are hundreds of millions cheaper (bhaal) than navy. As im typing this Machs are only ~50m more expensive than Tempest FI. Same story with the navy mega and vindicator. Its almost a 1:1 comparison in most cases.

Ship progression as far as good to best has always been T1 < Navy < Pirate. Navy and Pirate BS should not be in competition with each other from a price point, as by default most will choose pirate as you get more bang for your buck.

Now to address this, there are 2 ways to alleviate this price snag:

  1. Using the Barghest as an excellent example of how to make pirate BS hard to farm (hence its 900-1b cost, which is at least reflecting a x2 cost increase over navy). We remove pirate BS bpcs drops from sites, or SEVERELY limit their chance to drop. Then move the bulk of the drops into random belt spawns in their home null and low systems. I’d like to have more of them spawn in LS than in nullsec, but you should still see a decent amount. Maybe 60/40 split between LS/NS.

  2. Reduce LP costs on navy battleships from all LP stores. Anywhere from 50k-100k LP reduction.

This does a couple things. Most obviously, it will increase pirate BS prices and decrease navy prices (assuming they’re all rebalanced to be more desirable stat wise). This also puts people back in belts, trying to find the bpc’s, which means more people in space and not just in anoms. It also helps revitalize lowsec, as you will find more of the pirate BS there, rather than just being farmed in nullsec escalations.

Obviously, it won’t be an immediate switch, as i’m sure a lot of people have the BPC’s stock piled, but we should start to see prices stabilize and see a much healthier battleship progression/meta with those changes.


(Othello Nightstar) #33

Are you suggesting to me that you can find a battleship that you can jump into in a belt and then fly it out to a station and sell such a powerful tool of destruction if such a thing does occur I would love to set a out exploring for such a reward


(Othello Nightstar) #34

Pirate blueprints I didn’t realise could be found they must be very rare indeed


(Sasha Viderzei) #35

So ? That’s not something concerning the CSM at all. They cannot manipulate the market simply so everyone can sit in Faction ships, dummy.

Faction stuff overall IS expensive because the demand is always high but those cannot be farmed by manufacturer as easily as T1 hulls. There is no BPO for those, only BPC, and the only way to acquire them is to run DED sites, where they have a very limited drop rate (I ran approximatively 20 Blood Raider 8/10 lately, only got one Bhaalgorn BPC), or you have to do missions for a Pirate cartel, which is always in lowsec or nullsec, where you certainly can’t fly around in a PVE battleship.

Faction ships are expensive, and there’s nothing the CSM can or should do about it. Grow up mate, stop asking for cheap stuff.


(Othello Nightstar) #37

And if you researched most of my posts mate you would realize I’m far mor than just looking for cheap ships in fact I’d say increase the cost so idiots don’t ever try to fly them lol


(Othello Nightstar) #38

Have a good night fly safe or not at all


(Kiddoomer) #39

I’d like Mackinaw and Hulk to have a boost in PG and CPU, not enough to fit two large shield extender II of course, they’re supposed to be paper tanked ship on purpose, but at least enough powergrid so we can fit a proper propulsion module like a 10MN afterburner without fitting modules, and enough CPU to be able to put 2 tech II resist with a medium shield booster and either a drone navigation computer or survey scanner (with 2 MLU II).

It means about 53 PG more and 85 CPU to give an idea (base PG is 43.75 and CPU is 337.5 with L5 skills on a mackinaw).

About their yield and the overuse of Orca instead of barges in highsec I don’t know, nerfing orca could be something I guess.


(elitatwo) #40

And I did not say, they didn’t. However the Nighthawk is already very good with her slot layout.
Maybe you are not very good at fitting Caldari ships, which is fine, not many are.

I was playing with claymore and the Nighthawk fit in the last few weeks and when my Nighthawk can tank a haw fit moros, I do not believe another mid slot will do much other that significantly reduce the tank and more important, the damage the Nighthawk can dish out.
You can hop on SiSi and play around with fits a little, EFT is not very good at that.

In what way would a shield hp bonus be bad for a Vulture??

If you fit an Absolution for tank, she can have up to 800k-ish ehp and the Damnation close to 1m ehp.
The Vulture may get to 750k ehp with the Caldari phenom generator on grid, both Amarr command ships don’t need a titan for that.


(Black Pedro) #41

Indeed.

Ship: Orca
Why: Too good a miner in highsec it’s oppressive: massive hold, incredible tank, and decent yield.

Nerf some or all of these, or buff dedicated mining barges/exhumers accordingly.

Bonus suggestion: take the above and replace ‘highsec’ with ‘nullsec’, and ‘Orca’ with ‘Rorqual’.