The Cynabal - It's Time, CCP

[Kibitt_Kallinikov]

Hello game devs. First, thank you for your efforts on this game, I understand things take time and don’t run for free.

Let’s set the stage a bit, specifically starting 2014 Kronos expansion, pirate faction rework that nerfed Cynabal PG and CPU. In response to the cruiser thread, Suitonia (now a CCP employee I hear?) had the following reply -

In the time since then, the VAGABOND has been buffed numerous times. It got the Assault Damage Control. It got a powergrid buff. It got a range buff. It had its warp speed increased by 0.5 for being T2 to where it is now 4.5, and Cynabal sits at 5 now as its warp speed advantage has also been nerfed to 25%. (Originally it was 3 vs 4.5 AU/s warp speeds)

On top of this, the Cynabal’s price doubled with pirate faction industry changes, and the cheaper t2 HACs have also continued to bully the poor Cynabal. The Stabber Fleet Issue had its dps buffed to match that of the Cynabal as well, pinning it from another even cheaper angle and becoming a better armor tanked ship too.

As if this were not enough, even in Factional Warfare it is now forced to fight Recons, HACs, etc. due to pirate ships being categorized (rightfully) as much stronger than t1/navy ships.

There is hope, though! The new expansion seems to lead up to more pirate ships. Please, give the Cynabal a niche - currently there is no high dps autocannon cruiser in the game. The Cynabal does less dps with Hail and 3 gyros than the Caracal Navy does with Rage HAMs and 2 BCS. Let the Exequror Navy Issue show the way - it is ok for some cruisers to have speed and comically large damage.

You could even add some fun flavor in the process, changing the 25% rate of fire role bonus into 66.6% damage! Regardless of the number you choose, it is a niche that cruisers are missing as a whole, and one that Cynabal is poised to fill neatly, so I do hope you consider these words. This would also be useful for PvE blitzing setups, and help people consider ships other than the Gila or T3Cs.

Thank you for reading

(p.s. I know the Vagabond also lost targeting range, mwd sig bonus, etc. as well but those have not meaningfully changed the overlap it has with the Cynabal)

[Mary_Forcades]

Just yesterday meddled with Cynabal. It’s a cool ship!
As a newbie in the field of PVP i don’t really understand the bigger picture of things, but i have to say, that i didn’t come to any conclusion on how and why to fit for what purpose… It was confusing. The ship is weird fitting wise.

editedit: Though the ship has a pretty cool niche! The warp speed. I remember people using those ships in Triglavian invasion. Warping around the grid to bookmarks or other objects in space, it’s a sight to see when done properly.
I will never have the skills to execute that kind of strategy

[Phaade]

Ugh, the exeq navy is a perfect demonstration of how not to balance a ship, it’s OP as hell! I agree with the rest of your post though. I’ve got no reason to buy one at the moment.

Could it become the cruiser arty specialist since the munin was gutted?

[Lola_Munijugs]

While I do agree the Cynabal is underwhelming and in need of a buff, you can’t really compare it to a Vagabond, since alpha clones can’t get into them.

You have a good point comparing it to the Stabber Fleet though for sure, like you said the DPS is very similar. I believe the niche they were going for is the warp speed/accel, which correct me if I’m wrong- no longer applies to MWD (like it did in the olden days) so this does very little in fights.

The Navy Exeq is more massive, but it has a better inertia modifier AND a higher speed than the Cynabal. At the frigate level, the Dramiel is more agile and faster than the Comet, so it’s strange that the Navy Exequror has the stats that it does.

I think part of the issue with buffing medium projectile turrets is it applies to artillery also, and people ree about kiting. Or something. Regardless, this ship could definitely use more powergrid- and maybe a launcher slot & relative agility like the Dramiel has. The Dramiel is very fun to fly and this ship not quite as much. It needs something.

[Zaera_Keena]

@Lola_Munijugs

you can’t really compare it to a Vagabond, since alpha clones can’t get into them.

Which is it’s niche, the alpha’s vagabond.

[Kibitt_Kallinikov]

“Warp speed and acceleration” is a blanket term introduced in Rubicon, when the code was reworked to allow ships with different warp speeds to accelerate and decelerate out of warp at different speeds. Before then, a battleship would complete a 200km warp the same speed that an interceptor did, for example. Today, the term sounds redundant, because of course a ship with greater warp speed also accelerates its warp velocity faster! (Side note, the sluggish BS warp speeds after this made the 50% warp speed bonused Mach extremely appealing)

In general the problem is that even if Cynabal was faster, more agile, etc. it still needs a reason for people to bring it along. Speed, agility, evasion etc is just a travel ship. It has an awkward 5 mids, 5 lows that leaves either shield or armor fits wanting for something. With higher damage, the Cynabal would feel ok fitting armor for utility, or shield for maximum machine gunning and accepting either less tank or fewer control modules.

[Lola_Munijugs]

@Zaera_Keena

Which is it’s niche, the alpha’s vagabond.

Is it though? The differences in bonuses and resists would lead me to fit it differently, and as the OP said, it seems Vagabond is the superior brawler.

@Kibitt_Kallinikov

“Warp speed and acceleration” is a blanket term introduced in Rubicon, when the code was reworked to allow ships with different warp speeds to accelerate and decelerate out of warp at different speeds.

That is good information, thanks. I have not played with the Machariel.

@Kibitt_Kallinikov

In general the problem is that even if Cynabal was faster, more agile, etc. it still needs a reason for people to bring it along.

I can tell you from a small gang/ solo perspective (the only real perspective I have) a clear advantage in speed and agility would be the reason to bring it. I’m just looking at base stats to compare but it seems pretty close to outclassed or very similar in that regard to cheaper ships. From the looks of it, the Dramiel is still the king of speed among frigates, which makes it fun to fly.

The Cynabal simply doesn’t feel that way with the step up to cruisers, and it’s price tag and stats do not make it appealing despite its versatile slot layout.

[Kibitt_Kallinikov]

I hear you on the speed comment, I’m just not sure what being even faster would meaningfully change for the ship. Yes it’d be able to outrun a few more things without spending fitting on it, but… I think if we’re looking at a small gang situation then you’re pinched between a few things:

1. Vagabond (does AC kiter better)
2. Scythe FI (XLASB shield tank is very nice)
3. Stabber FI (does bulky armor better)
4. Hurricane FI (does artillery tracking/range better with command burst bonuses to support the team)

In order for Cynabal to project dmg like Hurricane FI, it would need to use tracking ammo. 3x gyro would get you about… 280 dps, at which point the Retribution is your competitor and it has better capacitor to hold point on things.

I guess this does bring up one change that might really help the Cynabal as well - a slight capacitor buff so that it doesn’t have to always sacrifice a mid slot for a cap booster when mwd kiting. Orthrus for example has an extra +1.2 gj/s which makes things a lot easier for it.

[Syzygium]

My thoughts on the Cyna:

It could really get some support for a kiting-playstile, after all it’s a pirate cruiser and they simply should master in hit&run techniques:

• Base Capacitor recharge: 490s → 350s (Vaga has 245s)
• Base Velocity: 263 → 275m/s (Vaga has 295m/s)

I’d also go for another slight buff:

• Drone Bay: 50m³ → 100m³

Why? First, it’s half Gallente, second it does not add more firepower by itself, but allows more versatility, since the pilot can either field two sets of medium drones to have different damage types and replacements in combat available or he can choose to field different types of drones for different scenarios. Less powerful in direct combat, but more versatile in options, that’s what should be the difference between the pirate cruisers and the HACs.

[Gleb_Koskov]

The Cynabal is fine, I do my yearly events with it alone, without mentioning the countless fleets we have because of its frigate like warp speed. You want a ship that needs looking at it’s the Ashimmu.

[Vayra]

Incase everyone forgot CCP nerfed the Cynabal many years ago.The problem is not the Cynabal itself it is the way CCP does balance.Compared to 10 years ago when this ship shined in a kiting situation the chaser(and lets be honest there will always be more than 1 chaser) will project damage and reach similar speeds to the kiter because we got so many more ships able to do it.We only had the Vaga and Cynabal as true speedy kiters now we got the Orthrus,Exequror Navy Issue,Vedmak .
Damage projection on ships with decent tracking and dps is going higher and higher so you are forced out of kiting at the range Cynabal guns work at.

[elitatwo]

If I may, I would like to run a small change by you.

@Syzygium

Base Velocity: 263 → 275m/s (Vaga has 295m/s)

I would switch the speed of the vaga and the cynabel in that example.

The reason is that the HACs were slightly speed-nerfed because the pirate cruisers still represent the upper progression limit and get the higher speed.
With HACs being the special ability ship and pirate would be the linear progression from navy / police faction, as in t1 > navy > pirate > triglavian.

[Kibitt_Kallinikov]

The Cynabal is fine, I do my yearly events with it alone, without mentioning the countless fleets we have because of its frigate like warp speed. You want a ship that needs looking at it’s the Ashimmu.

There’s many other ships that could use touch-ups. Yes, ashimmu is one of them, but it has the easiest fix imaginable - give it another lowslot (cpu to use it) and maaaaybe a tiny bit of speed.

The Cynabal’s only use is fast warping but the warp speed part is no longer as relevant as its align time, which is rather unfortunate. I personally go out of my way to use it for fun but essentially its use case often boils down to “this is an easy task where travel takes most of my time, and I either need to burn incredibly long distances on grid or T3C is banned (no hyper subsystem Proteus)”

Damage projection on ships with decent tracking and dps is going higher and higher so you are forced out of kiting at the range Cynabal guns work at.

Yep, that’s why my solution is just get more damage. It can turn dmg into tracking and range with tracking ammo, or it can choose to get closer and show off those numbers to make a more flexible ship that leverages its speed to pick a range where it can win.

[Syzygium]

@elitatwo

I would switch the speed of the vaga and the cynabel in that example.

Not sure, the Cyna has less mass than the Vaga, so it could be that even with lesser base speed, it gets more velocity boost from ABs and MWDs. If you make the Cyna even faster in base speed, the results could be that it would be too fast in the end, not only compared to the Vaga, but also compared to smaller sized ships like AFs, EAFs, Interdictors etc. But if you give it more mass to prevent that, it loses agility. And if you boost the agility, it might get into warp too fast. Its not an easy tweak here.

[elitatwo]

You may be right. In situations like this, I would usually check on the test server and get a feel for both. Looks like I have to put a pin in that for now.

[Kibitt_Kallinikov]

This same sort of speed/mass/agility problem has been solved in the past with many Amarr ships. In general, a higher mass with lower inertia modifier makes it so plates are less penalizing to fit, but you need more base velocity to keep the same top speed. The same could be done here, and it would have a side effect of making the Cynabal an even stronger bumping ship.

[Mordechai_Maccabee]

The issue with the cynable is the same with the new battle cruiser yes it has 5 mid and 6 lows as well as 75 band with and 100 drone bay but the damage sucks 700 with hail with 2 gyros at 1500 with barrage same fit it’s doing 220 at 54 k and it’s not much faster than the cyclone fleet it just runs into issues. You can’t really fit a tank and 425s also it only had one spare high which means you give up a gun for your second link. Which means that the cyclone fleet is better in most every way. Really sad to see tbh the alligator is similarly disappointing tbh.

[Seraph_IX_Basarab]

The Cynabal’s issue is that the Angel Cartel ship bonuses as underwhelming. AU warp…whoopedeedo.

Give all Angel ships the interceptor MWD bonus reduction in sig and heat bonus. That’ll make it unique.

[Famine_Aligher_ri]

@Kibitt_Kallinikov

Please, give the Cynabal a niche

Sorry, I’m late to the thread. I want to point out some pretty obvious things that you are missing.

Cynabal is a Pirate Ship

I don’t want to harp on you too much, but here is the base description of the ship.

The Cynabal was one of the earliest designs put forth by the Angel Cartel, and to this day it remains their most-used. The ship’s origins are unknown, but as with most Cartel ships persistent rumors of Jovian influence continue to linger. Whether these tales have basis in reality or not, the facts are on the table: The Cynabal is one of the fastest, most powerful cruisers to be found anywhere.

Please note the bolded text in the above qoute.

Ship Comparison

• Vagabond - 412mm, 369 m/s, 10.3k EHP, 4 meds/5 lows
• Stabber Fleet Issue - 381mm, 312 m/s, 13.1k EHP, 4 meds/6 lows
• Cynabal - 488mm, 329 m/s, 12k EHP, 5 meds/5 lows

When you look at this spread, I want to highlight a few things.

1. The Cynabal again, is a pirate ship. It’s scan resolution is INSANE.
2. The Cynabal has 1 extra medium slot for catching.
3. The Cynabal has more agility for hit and warp.

While I understand these bonuses or focuses is not for you, again, it’s a PIRATE SHIP. That means it’s role by default is for gate camping, especially solo pirate camping. It can fit a great tank and still have a layout of sensor boosting modules and enhancements to snag Frigs within 1.3 seconds with implants.

The ship doesn’t need a buff. We just need more people using it for what it was designed for.

[Zaera_Keena]