Next Summit Brainstorm - Ship Balance

(Makshima Shogo) #83

This, not many people realise how weak gurista ships are to e-war.

(Dragos Highwind) #84

Again with the “at full ramp”. :roll_eyes:

A leshak is:
3500 shield
10500 armor
4 mid, 8 low

A rattle is:
12750 shield
8940 armor
7 mid 6 low

You have to fit tank to a Leshak just like any other ship, it doesn’t just come with it and is arguably less tanky stock. The turret is incredibly fit and capacitor hungry, so unless you have extremely high skills it gets exponentially worse. (Note: Trying as hard as I can not to bring up the obscene cost as well that won’t come down anytime soon)

If you’d like to talk about defanged pretty easily ecm on a Leshak will remove it’s ramp along with not being able to track to hit the drone doing it unless you recall your drones and put out smaller ones, just like a rattlesnake can. Even easier, hit a precursor with weapon disruption.

So in the end you are comparing 1200-1300 that auto hits at 2x the range and has drones at 275% more health vs 800-900dps (1505 if you manage to stay on the same target and locked for 180ish seconds, an eternity) that has battleship level turret tracking with no bonus to drone hp.

(Stitch Kaneland) #85

And a rattlesnake is faction, while Leshak is T1. Keep that in mind. You also fit only 1 turret, as compared to 6-8 on other ships. Thats one reason why its fitting is so high, combined with fitting being a balancing point for trig ships.

You glazed over the parts where the Leshak has a lower sig and is faster. Which can negate a lot of damage from larger ships/weapons.

Also, the triglavian weapon has excellent tracking for a battleship, better than large blasters.

With non T2 ammo, your tracking is 6.81
With mystic or Occult, its 5.11

Mega Pulse Laser (Multi) = 5.8 (4.35 with scorch)
Neutron Blaser (anti-matter) = 6.49 ( 4.87 with null)
800mm (EMP) = 5.4 (3.78 with hail)

As you can see, even with T2 ammo, the Leshak still has great tracking compared to other battleship weapons and their T2 ammo and T1 ammo. So not only do you get the highest dps subcap, you get the best tracking out of any battleship weapon, you get RR, smartbomb and neut bonuses and still a very healthy drone bay (250m3).

You can roll your eyes about the ramp up stats (which i listed the non-ramp up stats too, but you can ignore those too if you want), but the fact is, if you’re not dumb or put yourself in a situation where you get jammed easily, its a non-issue to hit ramp-up. Even if you don’t hit full ramp up, in 30s you’ll be doing more damage with mystic than most battleships in the game. Are you saying you can’t survive for more than 30s in a battleship? And that somehow, an extra 50dps from a heavy drone is going to save you in that time frame?

Use smartbombs, the Leshak is bonused for that too. Clears EC drones easily. It has 3 utility highs, while the rattlesnake has 1.

Even easier, hit a precursor with weapon disruption.

How dare a ship that can potentially do 2500dps or 1500dps out to 53km have a counter/weakness! The humanity.

Stop trying to make this about 2 extremes. Yes, its 800-900dps before ramp up, but its not like you wait 3min and suddenly your dps goes from 800-900 all the way up to 1500 with no variance inbetween. The DPS ramps up every cycle.

Also, show me a rattlesnake that can apply all 1200-1300 dps to any ship out to 53km. A cruise snake is going to lose application outside of grapple/scram ranges. A RHML snake will apply decently to most things, but you’re not getting full application to HACs or smaller ships with lower sigs. Heavy drones can also be outrun really easily by small ships. Try to catch an inty with heavy drones. You can EFT the numbers all you want, but the reality is that rattlesnake damage can be fairly easy to avoid without EWAR.

(Jeremiah Saken) #86

Give the poor epithal enough cargo space for at least 1 command center without necessity of using cargo expanders. It is PI ship, it looks like design flaw.

(Dragos Highwind) #87

A Leshak is a precursor ship, a different category then T1 just as factions are. If the Leshak is meant to be treated as T1 I would kindly like drop rates on materials to increase 4x as much to bring the price tag on par. You can run a L4 to grind LP in a whole plethora of ships with little to no risk, abyssals not so much.

Supertidal T1 ammo = 6.81 (5.11 with T2)
Neutron Blaser (anti-matter) = 6.49 ( 4.87 with null)
Mega Pulse Laser (Multi) = 5.8 (4.35 with scorch)

I wouldn’t call a 4.7% increase great. If you slip down to T1 ammo to adjust range and tracking your reset your ramp and dramatically weak your shots.

I would completely agree on the smartbomb usage, if they weren’t hot trash. Use in high sec you risk concording yourself, use in a fleet you risk hitting your own drone or fleetmates. Now the ability to rep is very nice, however as you stated that is balanced with the main weapon (and ship in general) cap usage.

Count the number of seconds you are on a typical target, outside of caps and citadels. It’s not a fact of how long you are surviving, it’s how long your target is surviving. That’s not a factor of you being uber powerful, but the fact of your fleet focus firing or rat not having that much HP. Doing a fleet C5 the only thing that lasts 30 seconds is end battleship. Doing a fleet battle your target constantly changes.

Yes, the ship has a weakness to disruption. Just like your arguement that a Rattle has a weakness to ECM. For every weakness you say a Rattle has, a Leshak has more. A turret still glances and misses more that a missile will have lowered application. A missile will always hit however unlike a turret. No hit = no ramp tick.

The sign radius diff is significant, but that more because of shield vs armor tanked. The speed difference is negligible. They are both battleships, they both fly like a lead turd.

However, I’ll respectfully cease the back and forth on this as we’re clogging up the thread again on one specific ship. If Brisc wants a precursor balance thread we can happily continue there.

(Rivr Luzade) #88

Rorquals need to be restricted to 1 per 1000km around any asteroid.

(elitatwo) #89

Module: Tracking Diagnostic Subroutine I and II rig should become a “Weapon Diagnostic Subroutine I and II” instead to include guidance disruptors.

Why: The rig is hard to fit and only useful on 3 ships.

(Tater-nuts) #91

I would like to see both pirate and faction destroyers and to a lesser extent faction battlecruisers. My pvp activities lean heavily toward small ships and I feel given the right bonuses, they could add an especially interesting addition to faction warfare space.

(BalticBeast14) #92

Hello Brisc,

I have 2 ships on my mind. Primae and Eris.

Primae is a ship for Planetary Production but there are hardly any reasons why to use it. It has 100m3 capgohold, then 1000m3 bay for PI materials and 2000m3 bay for command centers. That is all together 3100m3, but 2000m3 of it is dedicated only for command centers, which is used only occasionaly for setting up new colonies. Hence practical capacity for hauling of PI materials is 1100m3, which is insufficient/joke/scandal (insert as you wish). Ordinary T1 haulers can do multiple times more. Not to mention Epithal, which has more than 50x of space, depending on skills. Primae also has no mid slots nor high slots. If any ship needs overhaul, then it is Primae.

Eris. Eris jums through gate and people say: what’s that? it’s some cov ops is it? I know that few people love it and are very dedicated about it, but the ship is barely used. Would it deserve some love to be more used?

At the end something which is also related to rebalance of ships. CCP shall rework description to ships, which were rebalanced in past and now the description is misleding to new players coming to the game and reding the description. See the Rifter for example: “The Rifter is a very powerful combat frigate and can easily tackle the best frigates out there.”

(Asuka Rossi) #93

Corax: u know why. Everyone says that it’s ■■■■ compared to the talwar. Unlock the missile bonuses so u can at least choose between damage bonus with all missiles with the corax or be EX locked but with a mwd sig reduction with a talwar. OR give it a web bonus, no caldari ship have it…and let people embrace how it feels be slow. #makethecoraxgreat(again?)

Griffin Navy Issue: the ecm bonus is useless with the ECM Rebalance, it’s more like a “kill me” module in it. Give it a bonus to burst jammers at least so can gtfo like before with the ECM but without the 20s ecm time. Or give it even more tank.

(elitatwo) #94

What’s a Corax?

(Stitch Kaneland) #95

Corax just needs more fitting and speed.

Arguably its the perfect ship to swat inties out of space, but after fitting it with LML, its barely got enough fitting for a respectable tank. Also, the flycatcher has the same bonuses and can fit tank+bubble and LML.

(Sasha Viderzei) #96

Which is… the point of destroyers ? Reaping apart frigates is what they do the best, but they have limited fitting rooms and mid/low slots, which mean even with a better power grid, your tank will still be somewhat lacking for something that can be hit as good as a cruiser.

(elitatwo) #97

…but no ballistic control since the bubble launcher needs 6 trillion cpu on the only f… boat that can fit it.

The Flycatcher direly needs 50 more cpu.

(Stitch Kaneland) #98

Cruisers counter destroyers, destroyers counter frigates. Thats the normal ship food chain.

The corax tank’s base stats is fine, it just has very little fitting room and its slow as hell, even for a dessie.

If fitting a bubble, your primary job is to bubble. Dps would come second. That being said, you can still fit a damage rig in after MSE. Scram, web, mwd, bubble and em amp. Corax has to gimp itself severely to go LML+MSE+MWD.

Without a bubble, flycatcher has plenty of room for a BCU. Rocket flycatcher is much better than corax as well.

(Asuka Rossi) #99

For fitting the t1 destroyers are well balanced as they are, u need to choose tank or damage in them. Corax speed is also not a problem, talwar is way faster and its coherent with the nature of the factions. Removing the kin lock is the easiest way to buff the corax a bit. Removing the damage bonus and swapping it with the jackdaw reload speed can also be interesting.
Btw the corax and the flycatcher are t1 and t2 ships, so very different and with a big gap in skills and pricetag. The talwar is the direct competitor.

(Sasha Viderzei) #100

Well, if you look at the Tech Tree, it’s quite normal that Corax is slow.
The only Caldari ship specialized for speed is the Osprey Navy Issue

(Stitch Kaneland) #101

Youre contradicting yourself here. You say the speed is fine and part of how Caldari is, then immediately ignore what you said to mention removing the kinetic lock.

Caldari’s damage profile is focused heavily around kinetic damage, that is the faction’s main damage type. Condor, hookbill, drake, cerb, rook, nosprey, hawk, corax, flycatcher are all kinetic locked.

Personally kinetic lock is superior to explosive lock.

Its not like im saying the corax needs to go 2.5k/s cold, but another 100-150m/s faster would be nice.

Im aware. But you should realize that an interdictor’s primary role is to tank and bubble. Damage is usually tertiary and not its focus. The flycatcher is also fast and fits a bubble, then does the same damage as a corax.

So if youre flying in a gang, what ship are you going to choose?

  1. The corax, which goes 1500m/s and has a paper tank

  2. A flycatcher that gets more tank, a bubble, full tackle, goes 2.6k/s cold and does the same damage as a corax. Along with a sig reduction bonus like the talwar.

Sure, if you just want to welp cheap things, thats fine. But if you want to actually support your gang (or fly solo and not get blobbed by everything by going 1500m/s), a flycatcher does everything better and youll never pick a corax.

Drake navy, hookbill, flycatcher are also specialized for speed. There are also several other caldari ships that are competitive in their class in regards to speed (faster or comparable to their amarr counterparts, or sometimes gallente). Not the fastest, but not left in the dust either. Caldari ships do normally sport the highest agility though.

(Arushia) #102

Tried to fit a Vengeance today. That ship could really use 10tf more CPU.

(elitatwo) #103

I think you are a few hours too late for that. The meeting should be over by now.