So you saying right here that they are enjoying the safety of an npc corp with the benefits of a player corp.
They have no meaningful choice.
It depends how much they want a corp office and better refine rates.
And these players are NOT connecting with other players. The opposite is happening. They are mining by themselves because they don’t need anyone else.
This isnt really current information.
When CCP said joining a corp was so wonderful you had cheap wardecs and AWOXing.
No one looked deeper into WHY corps had such a stronger retention rate. No one looked at how the deeply personal bonds were formed when trust was part of being in a player corp. The trust they don’t blow you up or attract a wardec. How necessary it was to engage with line members.
What happens when that trust is no longer necessary? When the need to lead is no longer necessary? What happens when the toxicity of NPC corps is allowed into player corps?
Whilst i don’t doubt that player corps still have a much greater retention rate than NPC corps, i pretty confident that the retention rate of corps today is far lower than corps around 2003-2012. I bet that corps that allow friendly fire or live in dangerous space have a higher retention rate.
And whos fault is it for not teaching them?
Who made a corp that they knew could one day be wardecced and did absolutely no prep or even gave new players the basic knowledge or guidance to operate during a dec?
True and not true. There is so much new players will have to learn when they start out the game that it is simply not possible for them to learn all vital aspects of the game within the first days and weeks.
No matter how awesome war 101 classes a corporation hosts unless the new player decides that wars is the thing they want to learn before they learn out for example fitting their ship or navigating in space then chances are very high they will ignore the classes until they have the time for it.
And for this i think the war changes are working perfectly. New players can learn the game step by step instead of all of the content pushed into their face right away. It is a upgrade from the NPC corp with no wars to a player corp with actual players interacting with you without no wars and hopefully the next step would then be wars or something else more advanced.
And yes obviously there are also corporations that do not inform their members about wars and then they have to learn it the hard way.
This feels like off topic here but there is always an upside and downside on everything. With ganking youll get your revengewhen you go to ganking yourself. Or learn to fit your ship the right way and not get ganked.
All losses are meaningless in the long term in this game as long as the players have the will and energy to push forward. Losses are just another chapter in your story. Im not rly sure what you are after with this comment so ill let it be.
No absolutely not, we are pro war and have been working hard to get a proper wardec corporation for our community. We have our own war corporations and are currently working to rebuild the program with experienced hs wardecers.
I feel like that hs wars is good content that also new players can enjoy. The problem is that most known hs war entities have extremely high requirements thus their content is unreachable for new players.
I do not understand your comment on this one as i already explained this: someone will always have to defend the structures no matter under which corporation they are. If you lose the structures the players lose the benefits. If the players do not want to lose the structures they either have to show up to defend it or in other ways make it profitable for the owner so that the owner has an initiative to defend the structure on the behalf of the players.
In the example of TTT it is the tax that you are paying that makes it worth it for the defenders to defend the structure which allows you to gain lower market taxes. Every choice you make in this game has a meaning, be it using someone’s tax or setting up your own station to avoid market tax.
True and not true. There are benefits for you to take advantage of corporation services like mining boost, buybacks and even moon mining. Obviously you can do all of this on your own but not when you are in the first week of your eve career as a new player. I guess it all depends on what kinda corporation you end up in.
What i hated was the hard nerf on moons in HS not due to losing good isk source but the fact that moon operations were pre scheduled mining operations that had a higher change of people mining together than what it is now with the belt mining. This i feel was step to the wrong direction.
The latest comment that i have personally had a about player retention rate being better in player corps than in NPC corps was in the last years CSM interview i tok part. Obviously this was not black on white but something coming out from a CCP employee i think it gives you at least the right direction.
It is not a wonder why player corporations have better retention rate: eve is a game that you play together with other players. This is not a single player game and things tend to become too hard to do or just boring if you do them alone. Ofc there are also things that some people tend to enjoy doing alone but the point is that when you ask people what makes you play eve it has most often something to do with other players.
Almost every story you hear about those well known players start out by them finding a corporation and other players with likely minded interests. As they grow older their interests might change but their interest to interact with other players does not so they will find another group to play with. This is what makes them play the game for decades.
Most corporations do not allow toxic players into their corps and they are removed rather fast. In NPC corporations you do not have this option as you can’t kick someone out of the corp or the corp channel so in this case also i feel players are better of in player monitored corporations than NPC corporations.
I would love to see some hard statics on the retention rates and what they are. Corporations that do things together no doubt has a higher retention rate than corps that do not do anything together. However this is a whole another problem we face about how can a new player know which corporation is active and helpful and which ones are just inviting them over for passive gameplay.
I already replied to this in a earlier post on this topic. TL;DR new players cant learn everything during their first few days. There is simply too much to learn in the game.
I am not enabling bad corporations. Our community is doing exactly the opposite. We find corporations in different areas of the game that we know are active and providing for their members. This is the core ideology of silent company and linknet: connect new players right away with other players in a easy going environment and from there push them into more advanced corps that we know are good for their members. In other words we try to work as a working corporation finder tool which the current tool is not.
They should never have the benefits because they were never wardeccable.
No meaningful choice. No trade-off.
I mean it’s literally in the description of SICO corps.
Just like a NPC corporation with benefits! Why stick in a NPC corporation with random players when you can be in a player corporation with friends?
How you want to benefit from us is completely up to you, just like in NPC corporations. The great difference with us and NPC corporations is that we have a lot more to offer with the same level of risks that they offer!
As a member of LinkNet you will be enjoying the full range of our services, including our corporation management framework! This alliance is not war eligible and you’ll be in an industry focused corporation helping support the other wings of LinkNet.
Silent Industry is for people who are particularly interested in Industry and Mining operations. We still benefit from all of the Coalition infrastructure, with the aim of providing industry support and building ships for alliance PVP and PVE operations.
Moons still make pre-scheduled belts that allows people to mine together.
So really it IS about the isk.
What’s also funny is that even before the nerf moon belts were overwhelmingly mined by afk orcas. Not mining fleets.
These well known players that started when?
This is such BS.
You’ve got at least 24h to say:
‘come here in a shuttle. We’ll give you free ships and form fleets’
Or
‘wars are fun. But they are completely optional. No one has to take part that doesn’t want to. If you don’t want to, you can drop corp and join the chat channel: i don’t like wars. and still fleet with us everyday. But dropping corp comes with trade-offs.’
Any corp that didn’t do this, is a bad corp. And that’s the vast majority of corps and yes, the game enables these bad corps.
You don’t need corp hangars and corp tax for that.
But you have both because you do more than this. And you, like me, should be deccable.
Ofc it is about isk. Why would people want to wait for a moon to pop to mine something that is less money when they can just head out to mine in belts.
I can only talk on behalf of our own corps when i say they were mined out in fleets, ofc there are also corps who have afk mining orcas and even bots.
You completely ignored the point where the player already has thousands of lines of text to read and tens of new things to learn when they start out. 24 hours is not enough not to mention if you join a corp mid war. For a second here try to go back to the time when you started eve and try to remember how much reading and learning it takes to start rolling with this game. We simply aim to split the learning process into a wider spectrum.
Not sure what this comment was after. The advanced corporations are deccable and they will fight to defend their assets in null, ls and wh space. However most of them are not rookies but people who already know the basics.
Why have you put these players into a position they can be decced then?
Why are you recruiting players during a dec and not taking the time to explain what this means?
If new players are so vulnerable during wars, why are the wardeccable corps saying:
‘join us! I don’t have time to explain wars to a noob like you. But join us anyways so i can take your isk.’
Because they are bad corps. They are responsible for the new players they recruit and they are responsible if those new players didn’t understand what a wardec was. They also don’t teach or support players in other areas of the game. They only do it take isk from other players and to feed their own ego.
ICANP is a classic example of this. And thank god for the wardec work around whilst it lasted or more new players would have been exposed to Naari_Naarian.
I’m saying SICO doesn’t necessarily need to skim tax off it’s members or have access to corp hangars and structures to achieve what you say you do.
But once you do, you should be wardeccable. It should be a meaningful choice.
None of this gets really to why some people think that leaving the game is the best way to avoid wars, and why you think thats a valid viewpoint that should be endorsed and supported.
Player is deccable corporations knows how to defend themselves as they have spend the time in the entry corporations to learn the basics. We on general level do not directly recruit new players into these war eligible corporations for this reason and they go via silent company which is not eligible for wars.
And yes again i can only speak on behalf of our own corporations, there are corporations out there who invite new players into war eligible corporations and dont teach them a thing but corporation taxes or NPC corporation taxes etc do not have anything to do with this topic.
One of my CSM campaign theoretical goals would had been to make the corporation system work so that even new players could identify easier what corporations are active and good and which are just passive and not doing anything by taking advantage of the activity tracker and putting it on corporation level.
I find it waste to debate about what adjustments should be done to NPC corps or player corps to nerf them or to buff then when the whole corporation mechanism is badly outdated. The whole system needs to be rebuilt but i bet legacy code says no to this.
Ah yes very true the corporation mechanism brings very little for SICO as we do not even collect taxes. If i would be working at CCP and would have a word in this i would want to rebuild the corporation mechanism that belonging to a corporation would bring you hard coded perks and downsides with it in addition to the benefits and downsides players are creating for them. This would make it more meaningful to be in a corporation.
Leaving the game is most often not the goal of avoiding wars by not undocking but it very easily is the outcome of the events if new players do not get to play the game.
Yes there are corporations out there who fleet up and try to fight back but in most cases for the smaller corporation this is not a valid options. Most mercs in HS are simply too much to chew for the smaller corps no matter how much they would try to fleet up and when you can’t beat your enemy there is not much to do than afk and wait for the war to end or undock and not care about losses. Fore new players not caring about losses will mostly end up pushing them out of the game. We can also blaim this on the older bitter vets whos think that its very hard to beat well organized hs mercs (as it is) and they do not bother to waste their time on the wars. Older players have it most often easier as they have alts they could use so it is easier for them to say just don’t undock while at war.
This is why i feel the war eligible mechanism is working perfectly. It allows players to connect and build up and once they are in a better position they can take on the pvp part of this game in one form or another.
NPC corp - no war, no social, fixed NPC taxes (like it is now)
Player corp - war, social, flexible taxes (as it is now when a corp puts a structure in space)
And in between, the step up from NPC corps, but not yet at the risk and reward of other player corps:
Social corp - functions like NPC corp (fixed NPC taxes and no wars) except with the benefit that you can form a social group to prepare setting up a structure later
Or in other words: add fixed NPC tax to corporations that do not have their own structure and depend on structures of others
It’s just interesting how we’re playing a game that relies heavily on risk vs reward, yet people only seem to want risk for others and rewards for themselves.
I mean, that’s completely understandable, from an individual’s selfish point of view.
From the larger (game) perspective it’s really bad though, to give the same rewards to playstyles with far less risk as to other, riskier playstyles.
They don’t care; they want what’s theirs. They’ve been trained since birth to feel a sense of consumerist entitlement. These are the same people who drink a can of Coke, and then upon seeing a normal garbage can and a recycling bin, will throw the can on the ground, because “it’s the garbage man’s job to pick it up.”
Why not attack structure to provoke response? Players who will not defend structure also will not try to defend themselves and will just log off for the length of war. What the point of war then? Just getting 1-2 easy killmails from clueless carebears?
Because it’s a written-off sunk cost. There will be no response.
Correction: there might be a response, after some of the big wardec cartels join as allies for free (in a complete bastardization of the mercenary system) just to have more targets.
This is only true when the most prolific war groups are also extremely strong and massive. When war groups were small and highly personal, everyone was much more inclined to fight. I wouldn’t have had literally thousands of kills doing this otherwise.
All of this was already explained to you anyway. I don’t know why you keep asking/bringing it up.
You’re making no sense. They’re hiding their structures in holding corps …
… which means they’re not willing to be attacked personally …
… and thus also are very unlikely willing to defend it.
No. You speak out of lack of experience.
All you ever get to see is the whining, you never read the stories.
