EVE Frontier, lol.
So 60k and growing was wrong vs 30k and stagnant? Thats what
got you. 
It wasnât 60k and growing. It was 60k one time for the duration of a single war. Since then the average has been declining, albeit slowly for a 22 year old game.
Iâm not even sure what youâre trying to say.
Nah, it isnât. There would be ways to shift away from a binary âlocal chatâ system towards more active tools for surveilling and analyzing the space around you.
Such a system would require some complexity because you would have to adress the needs of so many different playstiles and find a balance that is actually acceptable. Offering the Sov-holder who invests in a permanent surveillance system some benefits (else he wouldnât install and pay for it), but also offering invaders and roamers options to counter/hack/disable it at least temporary if it isnât protected, thus giving them tools to deal with their initial disadvantage and overcome it or even use it to their advantage if they are good.
However, at this point in the game I donât think adding that level of complexity is the right thing to do. EVE has severe problems to adress first and local as it is right now is a simple but working solution that shouldnât be that high on any priority list.
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Itâs called DSCAN and probes, like everyone else has to use. Again, I donât know why nullsec thinks they are special. Wormholes donât have local and they donât complain. Pochven doesnât have local, and they donât complain. Itâs just nullâŚ
Probably because neither Wormholers nor ppl living in Pochven have to fear cynos or have to long-term invest into Sov-Upgrades that require a pretty active baseline-activity in a system/region.
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Wormholers also get a ridiculous reward spectrum and safety measures for the no-local-userlist drawback. If Null Sec gets the same kind of bonuses (shutting down systems almost completely, making double-digit billions within an hour or two, not requiring hundreds of systems to sustain alliances, we could talk about deteriorating changes to local chat (delayed, sov hub upgrades, whatever).
As it stands, however, and looking back at Blackout Null Sec does not get the ability to shut off areas, does not get better rewards, does not get easier ways to make money that require little in terms of investment. Thatâs what I mean when I say, changes to local like the proposed here only bring disadvantages and nothing positive.
This has little to do with thinking they are special. It has everything to do with how CCP screws up everything they touch and still expect players to like it regardless.
Changes to local? They made Null sec like W-space without giving it any of the advantages of W-space.
Changes to mining? First they made mining so ridiculous that everyone got hooked on it like celebs to crack and cocain (despite players telling them not to do that), then they took it all away (after everyone invested boatloads of time, money and stuff into it), blamed all the gameâs issues on the players exploiting their systems* and made everything worse for everyone (not just null, W-space complained a lot about them getting mining-shafted as well) and then they introduce ridiculous busy-work around mining and expect everyone to like it.
Changes to cloaking? This is one of the only few remaining things that keeps null sec on their heels and requires them to put effort into their space.
Changes to Sov mechanics? More busy work ⌠pardon me, more activity in space, more exploitable systems, hardly any meaningful content and everyone complains how poor null sec uses the system to their advantage and warps CCPâs idea because CCP couldnât come up with a good system (like, seriously, stealing your own materials is the optimal way to use their system, otherwise you lose it all, which does not leave lots to steal for actual robber hostiles roaming around.)
It is disingenuous to say null sec only cries because they get their systems and mechanics changed. They mostly cry because they usually get dirt dumped on them and are expected to like it. And they complain when CCP blames them for their ability to actually alchemy that dirt into gold after all.
*Quant once famously blamed the 1% of the 1% making all the bank because they figured out how to rat with supers and titans, even thought it was also them that told CCP not to give these ships so much power for ratting. And Rattati and Psych blamed the players for exploiting CCPâs mining changes introduced by CCP against better advice from the players, which wrecked the economy. It is estranging that Rattati is still allowed to work for CCP after all his failures, to be quite frank.
Well, lets not exaggerate such values out of thin air. You DONâT make billions per hour in WH-space, at least not for a prolonged timespan and not without massive preparations and investments. I live here for years and know godknowshowmany other wormholers, young and old. And only a very very small percentage of them actually print money like mad. But those are cracknerds that would print the same money in null, low or even HS, because they simply use a dozen+ accounts at once for whatever they do. The overwhelming majority of WH inhabitants make pretty moderate amounts of ISK when farming, way below a billion ISK per hour, even when dualboxing (what is a quasi-standard here).
I agree that perfect local intel is powerful defensive knowledge.
I do not think that system-wide blackout in null sec is a good option though.
For one, we have seen what happened during blackout: the majority of people in null sec simply stop playing when the risks are stacked that much against them.
And donât get me wrong: with no local chat the risks in null sec are massive, much more than in no-local areas like wormholes or Pochven, becauseâŚ
Secondly, there is no way EVE space is balanced with both âno localâ and cynos.
Wormholes have no local and no cynos. Pochven has no local and no cynos.
Low sec has cynos and local chat, null sec too.
Wormhope space has naturally limited numbers of ships in a fleet, due to the restrictions of wormhole mass. Entrances cam be scouted.
Pochven too has naturally limited numbers in fleets with how the payout in the zone maximizes and stops at 15, and the number restrictions on filaments.
While those restrictions can be circumvented to bring N+1, itâs often impractical to push those limits.
Not so in null sec.
Null sec is N+1. Cynos and jump bridges can bring any number of ships from many places into your one system and you cannot keep an eye on all entrances.
You only have local to really keep track of such fleet movement and fleet sizes.
TL;DR: âno localâ does not work in space with cynos.
I would however like to see counterplay against perfect local intel.
Not system-wide with upgrades, but much smaller changes.
A few ideas I have had or seen:
-
Slightly delayed local, rather than full delayed (wh) or instant local (ns). People appear in local after for example dropping gate cloak, or for example after 30 seconds. No more perfect instantaneous intel, but you can still track large fleets.
-
A ship that does not appear in local.
Every tool in EVE has counterplay: Weâve got ships immune to dscan intel (recons), ships immune to overview intel (cloaks) and tools that can largely ignore combat probe intel (sensor boosters with ECCM). Why no anti-local ships?
For the latter, maybe put it on T2 ewar frigates, makes a fitting role for support frigates to scout ahead for a fleet while staying under the radar of perfect local intel without it being on a strong combat hull.
While I donât think system-wide lack of local chat is balanced in parts of space that has access to cynos, I think that a small tool to make local less infallible would be good.
Simple solution: put a 30s delay on local that can be reduced to 5s with sov upgrades, local works the same for everyone.
The sov holders still have the advantage of Intel channels and can stick scouts on important gates.
Hunters get a small window to aid in catching a target.
Full blackout is A Bad Ideaâ˘.
This would help catch a LOT of ISKâtar Bots.
Players paying attention while spinning a Haven will still have time to get away.
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We could just remove local in high-sec and low-sec.
Something I had been thinking about was dropping the member list, and instead showing amount of people in local. The lower tiers could have:
0: no member list or number.
1: no member list, but a number of people in local
2: number of people in local and separated by your standing towards them. So 3 neutral, 1 corp, 5 alliance etc etc.
3: as today, though also utilizing the above for a quick overview.
Could add a delay to separating them into the groups as opposed to hiding the local presence entirely, showing as 1 unknown for a bit after they jump in. Say 30 seconds.
Bring back Blackout.
âAnd donât get me wrong: with no local chat the risks in null sec are massive , much more than in no-local areas like wormholes or Pochven,â
Yeah, you still have asset safety in NS - not in WH, so forgive me if I donât think NS has more risk, you actually risk nothing but the cost of asset retrieval.
Make it so that local only shows you if you interact with any of the âinfrastructureâ.
You login to a structure, you are in local, you jump a gate, you are in local. There is a âphysical interactionâ with the installed tracking systems. Enter a system from a WH and you are not in local until you interact with a structure, gate, or an already tracked ship.
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I was always suspicious about the 60k. But it was a solid 50k. Still better than what we have today.
The best I could do solo in a C2 with 3 accts was 1.5 bil every 3 days. But a C2 is not worth harassing much. Thats why I took it.
I would love to see blackout everywhere except hs, but the game would soon fold as the null blks bailed.
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Speaking of Null always so bad because of cloaking and local: I just found out that Havens prevent cloaking now. Just like the Desolate Asteroid Fields, which prevent cloaking through the massive NON-INTERACTABLE OBJECT, the same now happens in Havens. No more cloaky sneaking up on targets. With stuff like that, thereâs less and less reason for local or cloaking to change anything.
We welcome our new and improved null-sec overlordsâŚ