October 2018 Release - General Feedback

[Baatin_Chaikai]

Why I canceled my subs

Well, I am tired of being player second class !
I am/was a wormholer.
This (Un-)Balance Pass is again a punch in the face of all J-Spacer.
Its not the silly ECM-nerf for Rook & Co. that makes me sick.
Raiders will just replace the jammers by damps[the next Nerf], and continue.
Only SeBo-less-fools had trouble with ECM.

Its again a kick in the balls for everyone who runs citadells and live in J-space within the last 18 month.

1. making invu-timer 24/7 - means in worst case I loose shield and armor without any chance of resistance (not in my time zone)
2. remove the posibility to refit the structure as long the shield is not at 100% - no adapting to the attacker
3. nerfing T3-cruisers - leads to a collaps of T3-production (gas - the unique economic reason to settle in J-Space)
4. Asset safe NOT for J-Space - JALP (just another loot-pinata)
5. transforming the last usefull Mid-Slot module (StandUp-ECM) to a peace of junk

I am sick of being discriminated while lifing in J-Space !
I can not clone into my citadell,
If someone pod my I need to find my way back to my WH
My access is limited by shipmass, means I can not use my Caps for raiding in 0.0, or transport my stuff in freigters.
I have no posibility for upgrading my system[infrastructure upgrade], no high-class moon mining or regular asteroid-belt, and don’t ask for ICE.
No bounties, Blue Loot can be lost either by WH-Raiders or HS-Gankers.
But all this things was a part of being a J-Spacer.
And it was fine as long risk and revard where in balance, but since a while its gone.

EVE as I understand is a/was game, content-driven by conflict.
More conflict -> more content.
Weaken the big ones -> more fights, more destroyed ships and stuff -> more need to mine&produce …
But this Ceptor-Nerf is a huge present to Goons and Co.
For me as small gang-ganker/PvP-Player it will be harder to fight in NS.
Even before the patch it was not so easy, when you get counter-dropt by 25 S-Caps three times a day.

Now I had two choises, fighting the blue dounat, with strongly decreasing chances(fun) or joining Goons and Co.
But sadly since the ancient times of DAoC I hate running in the “Zerg”.
So the miners and ratters will be more safe.
In this pony-farm enviroment they generates mor ISK and in a few everyone can own a second and third titan.
But whats comming after ?

So I canceld my subs.
Omega will run out about chrismas, let see which NS-improvements will apear then.

My 2 cents
BC

@Brisc_Rubal : before you have to ask, yes of cource you can have my stuff.
But you have to leave your comfort-zone and move to my (former) WH J205205.
But a small bird tweeted in my ears, that this will not happen.

[Sylvia_Kildare]

@ody_sseus

if you look at that donat for 30 sec and then look at the wall…you can see the Mitany

This made me LOL way too much for this time of morning. Thank you for that.

[Nana_Skalski]

@Brisc_Rubal

they hate ECM with a passion

RNGesus must have abandoned them. So they became nonbelievers in ECM.

[Xsagaroth]

the problem is that the change to this module makes it practically irrelevant - therefore making quite a few caldari ships fairly irrelevant. I mean look at the standup ECM module - what purpose does this module now serve?

The fact is that this “balance pass” has been poorly thought out, there is no other way to slice it.

[Sylvia_Kildare]

@Iowa_Banshee

I think all the logi will be 100K off repping the falcons.
and
the falcon pilots will reserve one ecm module for friendly jams on their logi so they can always be a target for repps

Um, if the ECM ships in a fleet jam their own logis, those logi can’t lock each other then, only the ECM ships. Do you mean in a case where a logi is already jammed out by an enemy fleet? First the ECM pilot would have to know that, and know which exact logi to target (presumably all the other logi right then can lock him and rep him anyway, so is that really needed?) so there’d be a lot of extra communication required…

Or else the logi wing has to all have ECM to jam each other while they also rep and cap. And all the DPS ships that want reps better have ECM, as well. Nah, down that path lies madness.

[Astrid_Asanari]

nice RIP Damavik now … it was hard to fit it before and now … u should leave low slots as it was just add midslot … without that lowslot its disaster

[Scooter6976]

i see you brisc! adding words to your arguments, now that we have ‘reset’ the thread! now its ‘no counter that worked consistently’. uh huh. gg bruh. and btw, wtf are you Still doing here? you got what you wanted. RNGeezus is gone, and ecm is broken in multiple ways. carriers can now wipe griffins like the joke they are now. anything with sentries no longer Has to be Fast. they can take their time to kick out their COUNTER to jam boats @ range.

you should Know what Horseshit IS and looks like, since your FULL OF IT!

Dev Blog: October Balance Pass!

And for some reason currently has higher fitting

^^in case ppl new here didn’t read the original thread

[Aroye]

ECM does not work consistently, yet you want a counter that works consistently (as you made it clear, repeatedly). Do you really see no problem with that?

Also did you ever think that maybe your entirely subjective conclusion that “folks” don’t like ECM in general is just a reflection of what you prefer to hear?

[Colinde_s]

@Brisc_Rubal

This is all horseshit.

I made it clear, repeatedly, that my issue with ECM was the RNG nature of it, and that there was no counter that worked consistently - folks brought up sebos, sig amps, and the rest and I acknowledged that and then reminded folks that even with all of those things, together or in combinations, there’s still a chance the jam lands and then all that ECCM you brought is worthless and you’re left with either trying to run away or dying.

That’s not a fun mechanic.

Rarely have I seen a council member, of any representative council, be this insulting to the very community he is supposed to represent.
First of all… There are many ways to cut the cake. The balancing move of choice is a lazy one.
That is what people is complaining about. I’m not going to list a whole lot of specific ways of balancing ECM, but here are some general ways it could have been done.

• Boost ECCM capabilities.
• Weaken ECM success chances.
• Lower the effective range of ECM.
• Make the cycles longer/shorter.
• Revamp ECCM and ECM.

Instead it was chosen to put a bullet in the knee of ECM pilots and ECM on structures.
Okay… I guess ECM now have a nieche use in larger fleets.
But wait. maybe if larger fleets used sensor dampeners with range scripts on all their ships instead of some other combat utility… Wow… 5k targeting range. Effective “ECM” like results.

@Brisc_Rubal

I have heard over and over again, from players here, from alliance and corp mates, from folks on reddit, that they hate ECM with a passion.

Again. There you are reinforcing the image that the CSM is only interested in Null sec and Imperium issues.
You mention only your corp mates and alliance mates. Oh and reddit… So… Why do we have an Eve forum, if Reddit is the place to go? Who uses reddit most from the game? I bet you it is Null sec players. Edit: You also mentioned the forums, but I have only seen CSM members here be defensive of the choice of balance. Again… i’ve read many suggestions on how this could have been balanced other than what was done.

@Brisc_Rubal

Just because folks disagree with you doesn’t mean you’re being ignored. If someone disagreeing with you makes you that upset, I’m sorry.

Again… CSM members pushing criticism aside without the slightest attempt at acknowledging large parts of the community’s concerns.
You could at least respond to those who actually come with good suggestions on this thread and these forums.
Is that the case?
Again. you are doing very little to make the CSM appear as they are interested in the community as a whole.
You are reinforcing the narrative that CSM is “Goon” controlled, and being used to their advantage.
You are reinforcing the rest of the community’s view of the CSM being ineffective.
You are disrespectful of other players experiences and opinions.

As a CSM member, you have a responsibility to the community. I don’t see that responsibility being honored.
As a CSM member you have to be able to take criticism and respond to it in a meaningful way. I haven’t seen this from ANY CSM member on these forums, yet. Please point me to one if you see one.

You could change this.
It is up to the CSM to save their image. We sure as hell can’t do it for you.

[Black_Ambulance]

@Colinde_s Well said , very true.
also with @Baatin_Chaikai I fully agree with you here.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Tink_Pickles

However, that is besides the point. I made it very clear that the reason it was obvious you were engaging in bad faith had nothing to do with the fact you disagreed with others, and everything to do with how you went about that disagreement. I already catalogued the specifics previously.

I responded to their opinion with my opinion. I engaged their arguments, made my responses, even if you didn’t believe that my responses were adequate or effectively countered what was written.

It was a conversation. Regardless, I have no reason to engage in bad faith - all I’m doing is having a conversation.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Baatin_Chaikai

@Brisc_Rubal : before you have to ask, yes of cource you can have my stuff.
But you have to leave your comfort-zone and move to my (former) WH J205205.
But a small bird tweeted in my ears, that this will not happen.

Contract it to me, and I’ll get over there. Kthx.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Colinde_s

Rarely have I seen a council member, of any representative council, be this insulting to the very community he is supposed to represent.

I’m not insulting anybody by pointing out that an argument accusing me of arguing in bad faith is horseshit. It is. Period.

@Colinde_s

That is what people is complaining about. I’m not going to list a whole lot of specific ways of balancing ECM, but here are some general ways it could have been done.

It’s very easy to outline other ways to fix something, but none of that takes into account what CCP has to do, their resources, the time and prioritization to get something done, and all the rest. This is what they chose to do. If you don’t like it, that’s fine, but that’s not something to complain to me about. I’m simply defending the decision to make the change in the first place, because it’s a good thing.

@Colinde_s

You mention only your corp mates and alliance mates. Oh and reddit… So… Why do we have an Eve forum, if Reddit is the place to go? Who uses reddit most from the game? I bet you it is Null sec

I talk to players from across the game - I am literally the most accessible CSM member. Anybody who has sent me an eve mail has gotten a response. I’m the only one consistently on these forums. I’m on reddit. I’m on two dozen discords. Twitter, Facebook - anybody who wants to talk to me can talk to me.

Other than in this thread and a handful of complaints on Facebook, I have heard far more complaints about ECM than complaints about this change.

@Colinde_s

Again… CSM members pushing criticism aside without the slightest attempt at acknowledging large parts of the community’s concerns.

I have said, over and over, that I understand why some people are unhappy with the change. I have also said that i think that this is in the best interests of the entire game, and that’s what’s more important. I’ve responded to folks with good ideas, and I’ve passed ideas on to the Devs.

As for the rest, I appreciate the advice.

[Brisc_Rubal]

That was fixed before the update. This was a video from SISI last week.

[Colinde_s]

@Brisc_Rubal

If you don’t like it, that’s fine, but that’s not something to complain to me about. I’m simply defending the decision to make the change in the first place, because it’s a good thing.

The CSM is exactly the ones to complain to. And “because it is a good thing” is not a response on this matter.
It’s good for some things, I am sure. But when such a mechanic as ECM is being disrupted with a sledgehammer approach to balancing, and it makes a large chunk of ships irrelevant to even sit in, that approach is not worth the resources spent on it in the first place. Work smarter, not harder. Sometimes it is better to spend more time and resources on doing something right the first time, instead of having to back-track previous failed attempts.
I don’t know how many subscriptions are dropping these days, but the forum seems to indicate a general dissatisfaction of the direction of the game. That, long term, will limit resources even further… Just saying…

@Brisc_Rubal

I talk to players from across the game - I am literally the most accessible CSM member. Anybody who has sent me an eve mail has gotten a response. I’m the only one consistently on these forums. I’m on reddit. I’m on two dozen discords. Twitter, Facebook - anybody who wants to talk to me can talk to me.

Okay… maybe you should then take some responsibility and kick the rest of the CSM into action on the forums. I do not want to point fingers at any single member of the CSM as the CSM is collectively failing to engage the community in a productive way.

@Brisc_Rubal

I have said, over and over, that I understand why some people are unhappy with the change. I have also said that i think that this is in the best interests of the entire game, and that’s what’s more important. I’ve responded to folks with good ideas, and I’ve passed ideas on to the Devs.

What about relaying reasoning and discussions you, no doubt, have had with CCP? I understand the CSM is only an advisory body to CCP Devs, but you also carry the responsibility to carry the discussion in both directions. You are as close to CCP as a player can be.
If you are tired of relaying CCP’s reasoning and stuff, make a forum post and pin it for a limited time.

Honestly, I appreciate your response. One of the most productive I’ve seen from the CSM.

[Winston_Onzo]

wow, so much salt in this thread, my biscuits and gravy are tasting bad.

instead of getting on here and bitching, why not go and actually provide actual feedback from the game, and not from your cold hearts.

[Winston_Onzo]

@Colinde_s

What about relaying reasoning and discussions you, no doubt, have had with CCP? I understand the CSM is only an advisory body to CCP Devs, but you also carry the responsibility to carry the discussion in both directions.

It’s called an NDA. Therefore some stuff that is conversed between the CSM and the DEVS cannot be discussed with us.

[Colinde_s]

@Winston_Onzo

It’s called an NDA. Therefore some stuff that is conversed between the CSM and the DEVS cannot be discussed with us.

Ehh… Yes… I’ve signed a NDA with CCP when I visited the HQ back in 2015.
But that doesn’t stop them getting approval from CCP in disclosing some things, discussions, etc.
It’s bureaucracy. Anything is possible, if procedures are followed correctly.

[Brisc_Rubal]

@Colinde_s

The CSM is exactly the ones to complain to. And “because it is a good thing” is not a response on this matter.

Complaining in general to me or the rest of the CSM doesn’t do much. Making your complaint public here will get as many Dev eyes on it as me saying “people are unhappy about the ECM changes” to the Devs, which is what I do when I see posts that get a mass of complaints.

I’m not the one doing the programming. I am communicating why I support these changes, and passing on your concerns. But I’m also going to share my opinion. I have passed on concerns I don’t agree with and I’m going to keep doing that because that’s my job.

But I would be doing everybody a disservice if I didn’t share my own feelings on the matter.

@Colinde_s

Sometimes it is better to spend more time and resources on doing something right the first time, instead of having to back-track previous failed attempts.

This is a common refrain, and it’s a recipe for doing nothing. CCP has started trying to do smaller iterations of things they can change quickly, without having to do a months long rework of an entire mechanic. And here, the mechanic can be altered relatively easily without requiring months to redesign the entire thing. So they’re trying this and we’ll see what the result is.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with doing things this way, and it represents a more nimble approach than these massive fixes that then don’t get iterated on for years.

@Colinde_s

Okay… maybe you should then take some responsibility and kick the rest of the CSM into action on the forums. I do not want to point fingers at any single member of the CSM as the CSM is collectively failing to engage the community in a productive way.

I can’t tell the other guys what to do. I can only lead by example. What I will say is that when I get constantly ■■■■ on, accused of arguing in bad faith, of pushing the Mittani’s agenda, being full of ■■■■, or whatever, it’s not exactly going to encourage any of the other CSM members to wade in. Not everybody has the tolerance to deal with this. I do, because I do this for a living.

@Colinde_s

What about relaying reasoning and discussions you, no doubt, have had with CCP?

I wish that I could do that, but we’re under an NDA and I can’t repeat what the Devs tell us without explicit, written permission. The fact that I could even say “Rise is looking for your feedback” was specifically because he told me I could say that.

At this point, the arguments over the change need to shift to what needs to be done to balance these ships in light of the new mechanic. I hope folks will do that instead of what folks have been doing.

[Colinde_s]

@Brisc_Rubal

I can’t tell the other guys what to do. I can only lead by example. What I will say is that when I get constantly ■■■■ on, accused of arguing in bad faith, of pushing the Mittani’s agenda, being full of ■■■■, or whatever, it’s not exactly going to encourage any of the other CSM members to wade in. Not everybody has the tolerance to deal with this. I do, because I do this for a living.

Then your fellow CSM members are not fit for the CSM. Taking community ■■■■ -talk is kinda part of the job description.

Anyways.
In general, I appreciate your responses. It has been a meaningful discussion. Might not have been for you. But i hope others have read these ping-pong replies, and can see that at least one of the CSM members tries his best to be a neutral entity.

@Brisc_Rubal

Making your complaint public here will get as many Dev eyes on it as me saying “people are unhappy about the ECM changes” to the Devs, which is what I do when I see posts that get a mass of complaints.

Point taken.

Fly safe o7