I been waiting for this day a long time.■■■■ ECM
you do understand that since they gutted community team, there nobody else to read it?
apparently, they outsources all the dirty work to CSM, I’m actualy quite impressed with @Brisc_Rubal , the amount of bad neg he is able to tank is simply staggering.
CCP had plenty of time to wade trough good/bad feedback, before ppl started to get annoyed at lack of any response from devs.
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funny fact, while I fully skilled to ECM , I never used ECM in any PvP to date!
It just blows my mind that CCP can change something so radically w/o offering free SP reallocation on affected skills.
Today they ‘change’ ECM , tomorrow - lets change Amaarr ships to do only EM damage, because … why the **** not? Playerbase don’t have a voice anyway, they will eat whatever we throw at them.
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I’m confused by your post, the only changes that they made were that the HIC warp disruption field modules no longer decrease mass so that you no longer have the 500mn HIC that has the maneuverability of a frigate. The core role of a HIC never changed, only the broken 500mn was removed and the wh rolling portion was removed, but then they re-added the ability to use it as a wormhole roller by adding the new mas reducing module to thankfully keep the wormholers happy.
EDIT: I think you are referring to the ECM changes, yeah having an ECM module can no longer help. Only options is to outrun it with speed or to use ECM drones.
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Warp Disruption Field Generators:
- Removed penalty to thrust
- Removed reduction to mass
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Ah, I see. Still HIC’s arent terribly fast…unless you’re in an industrial I guess.
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So, essentially:
- They nerfed ECM with the excuse it didn’t have a counter, which it did
- They removed a counter for industrials in low sec gates for no apparent reason
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The majority of us posted reasoned and measured feedback, along with numerous alternatives, several of which I referenced in this thread earlier. The problem was that Brisc_Rubal was, as it eventually became abundantly clear, not engaging with the community in good faith. This is why several of us, myself included, dropped out of the thread after saying our piece since it was pointless.
For reference, he repeatedly claimed that there was no means to counter ECM, despite being told several ways, including fitting a sensor booster, fitting signal amplifiers, and having logistics vessels perform remote sensor boosting.
He also said that there was no way to respond once successfully jammed. This was answered by pointing out a person can warp off when jammed, engage a prop mod to burn out of range of guns/jams until the cycle expired and a new roll might fail, or fitting solutions like arming themselves with drones set to aggressive in space or using Auto-Targeting Missiles.
On top of this, he disregarded the fact that in order to obtain the jam strength required to get the so called “cancer ECM”, both very high skills were required, as well as extensively sacrificing both tank and calibration for jams that were reliable against ships that had no counter fitted.
Finally, he refused to acknowledge that any of the alternative suggested changes to deal with the bad feeling associated with being jammed (e.g. shortening the cycle time so even a lucky jam doesn’t affect you for as long) could possibly deal with the perceived issue.
His complete writing off of solo ECM and ECM use by droneless haulers to escape attack did not help matters either.
His unwillingness to engage in good faith only exacerbated the existing feelings of disenfranchisement of other players regarding the whole CSM issue (Which I personally have no opinion on) and fed back into a pre-existing narrative that the CSM was only representing a subset of the playerbase, and not the whole.
Furthermore, since he was the only member of both the CSM and CCP to engage, or even acknowledge the discussion taking place at all, it fostered a very resentful and hostile environment in the thread, as it was made abundantly clear that our concerns were being ignored.
You can hardly fault us for being a little put out by all of that.
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The point being, they could have done anything but what they did.
my general feedback at this point. do something, anything, buff the ships and change their bonuses to reflect the large tactical difference now applied to ecm, hold a multiple choice vote on the options balancing ecm. just something cause right now ecm ships have no solo capacity outside of ecm drones which does not feel like a unique style of play as anything can use them with equal results.
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This is all horseshit.
I made it clear, repeatedly, that my issue with ECM was the RNG nature of it, and that there was no counter that worked consistently - folks brought up sebos, sig amps, and the rest and I acknowledged that and then reminded folks that even with all of those things, together or in combinations, there’s still a chance the jam lands and then all that ECCM you brought is worthless and you’re left with either trying to run away or dying.
That’s not a fun mechanic.
I have heard over and over again, from players here, from alliance and corp mates, from folks on reddit, that they hate ECM with a passion. So it’s disingenuous to sit here and say that I was engaging in bad faith simply because I don’t agree with you.
Just because folks disagree with you doesn’t mean you’re being ignored. If someone disagreeing with you makes you that upset, I’m sorry.
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There were pages, pages, pages of well-reasoned, polite, and articulate feedback. Everything ranging from “none of these changes will work, here’s why”, to, “none of your changes will work, here’s some details on alternatives [drastic] and [slight changes to proposed patch notes]”.
Everything from the validity of the initial complaint “I can’t do anything once jammed”, to the many problems inherit of every single part of the RNG mechanic, to the lack of fitting options for tank, everything. Everything was discussed ad naseum. In fact I’d go so far as to say the majority of the feedback was perfectly fine and there’s no excuse to ignore all feedback because someone else caused a stink.
I think more than anything, that your comment is hugely insulting. Not to the people that provided all the feedback, but to the devs. You just implied that reading a forum thread was too much work to engage with the community the devs are in charge of developing for and interacting with. If your job tasked you with a major project but told you to read a 30-page manual to familiarize yourself with the project first…and you didn’t, instead opting to just forge ahead with whatever preconceptions you had when you heard the project title…you’d be fired on the spot, and rightfully so.
Seeing that the wormholers got some scraps thrown to them, I’m convinced the devs did read through the thread. So I think you needlessly insulted them and their work ethic. As for the patch, at least as far as the rest of the changes are concerned, they seem to be simply unconvinced that they were in the wrong at all. They also never detailed what exactly they’re looking for, either with the potential for rollback of the changes, or even what their grander vision is. Conspicuously, that gives them a lot of wiggle room to declare any and every thing a success and move on.
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This is a hollow argument you complain about the random number but this RNG is combined with a calculation modified by skills and modules
This holds as much weight as complaining that a projectile fired at you HIT because there is a RNG in the hit or miss calculation
- Why are you not shouting “UNFAIR” because projectiles can hit me because of a random number generator and there’s nothing i can do
I call bull - you can modify the end result with skills, modules and in=game actions (warp off, burn away, use a script)
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that was his point…Even with all that, you get jammed, your still screwed either way.
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ive been catching up on this and the original balance pass forum, what do you think of the suggestion where the modules are made sm/med/lg/xl and stats balanced accordingly?
one post i saw gave me an idea, what about ecm modules for diff module types? like weapon tracking disruption vs missile tracking disruption, ecm that can temporarily shut off other ecm modules or painter modules, or even turn off shield boosters for a short duration, possibly even weapons by type?
just currently the idea of jamming somone and the one jamming is the exception its really hard to want to fly that kind of target, you dont even need to be priority, if you jam a dps ship and your in range and at speed of tracking, your gonna poof. i was focusing ecm hard before the change (so new to ecm) so idk what it takes to fitt cancer ecm, but i have a hard time jamming friends in tests sometimes. (moslty level 4 skills)
(lots of editing sorry spelling and slightly refining idea)
It’s not that you got jammed JUST because the RNG said so, or you were hit by a projectile JUST because the RNG number said so.
You got jammed because you didn’t fit a counter or train up a skill + RNG
You got hit by a projectile because your fit made your sig bigger or you didn’t train up a skill + RNG
The next jam may miss because of this modified RNG just like the Projectile may miss.
With this logic - That Alpha hit that blew up a ship because of a RNG - Do you want a re-roll or just have it so there’s no chance of a maximum hit.
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There is a vastly higher chance that the jam fails, however, which is a factor you ignored. You acted as though it was a foregone conclusion. That even if you fit a counter, that even though sixty five times out of a hundred you would avoid the jam with a sensor booster, that 35 percent chance that you would fail, that the jammer would get lucky and succeed, was a horrible thing. Unfortunately for your position there are always two sides. The desperate ECM pilot who manages to land a lucky jam and get away, saving her ship from certain death. The person who rolled the dice and came out the winner because of sheer gutsiness.
Or the Catalyst pilot who luckily manages to withstand a 95% chance of jams against a navy griffin and manages to turn the ship to dust.
As Iowa Banshee pointed out, criticals are a randomly determined thing with lasers, hybrids, projectile cannons, and drones. A string of lucky criticals can smash another players ship apart even if, on paper, that ship were the stronger. The difference between the two scenarios is simple: People don’t notice the criticals and fails as much as they do a successful jam.
If you were in any way consistent, you’d oppose those as well. You aren’t and you won’t. You’ll tie yourself in knots to avoid it. Yet fundamentally it all comes down to the RNG nature of it, and as you already said:
However, that is besides the point. I made it very clear that the reason it was obvious you were engaging in bad faith had nothing to do with the fact you disagreed with others, and everything to do with how you went about that disagreement. I already catalogued the specifics previously.
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Just waiting for the CSM to claim that “Nothing good nor constructive” comes out of the forums when CCP let the CSMs become their filter making the CSM even worse in execution than it already is.
Ofcourse they are going to claim everyones concern is just a bunch of “angry forum babies/trolls/disagreeable fellows” when it goes against their own interest. Especially when they show they lack basic understanding of the mechanics to the point where basic counters and actions is already accessible just to be dusted to the side as irrelevant.
These are the people that got selected to represent us folks. Either they try to deflect the point, or they are dead silent.
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2500+ posts in the original feedback thread pre-deployment - no response from CCP
78 posts (and growing) post-deployment - no response from CCP.
Getting a response from CCP is clearly something we should not expect - getting multiple responses from Brisc_Rubal, goon representative and CSM is as good as it gets and as we have already noticed, that is not nearly good enough.
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With this comment you must feel right at home here.