Do you want to join our fleet?
Right.
Do you need me to tell you when I notice you? Personally, like the rest of our kin and other peers, you can do as you please and make your mistakes. It is none of my business to step in and try to guide you. I gladly will provide any insight if asked. You did not ask for any. To be frank, I would imagine you havenât with any of our kin, yet you have no problem seeking it from those who have wronged us in the past. Let me be clear, pursuing more friendly relations is an amazing and worthy goal. Doing so at your own detriment is a horrible idea.
Are you supposed to care what I think? Not particularly but since you feel the need to lash out at me for merely pointing out that 10+ posts that can be summed up as âmy corporation is 2 people how can we compete in a competition that involved fundraising for a citadel monetarilyâ is in truly poor form, obviously it must be a concern of yours? Lets be realistic. you chime up in an event that is about funding the operation costs of a citadel. What types of people are interested in operating citadels? Ill give you a hint, when my corp moved to calmil (mind you our only financial supporters stopped backing us leaving us to struggle to pay for fuel) we did it. It isnât cheap. Do you expect anyone to fund someone elseâs citadels? So obviously the people funding will:
- Have some association with the party who owns the citadel
- Actually have money
So sorry, you have neither. So complaining that the people throwing the most money into the auctions is rather childish, is it not? If you donât have the money, shut. your. mouth. with dignity. Congratulations, you have finally gotten that attention from your peers you so desperately craved. Please excuse me for not trying to guide your whole being, Iâve always been a believer that one should carve your own ******* path.
Personally with this, I probably wouldnât want you in my fleets, you seem rather unstable as of late. Maybe Iâm not alone in this. Ever think of that? Just because your peers keep their mouths shut they notice, they notice you, they notice me, they notice Arrendis, Anna, Tyrel, ect. Maybe they all havenât said it, but maybe theyâre telling you something with their silence.
Or not, who knows?
edit:
Oh, and for your information, Ive most definitely questioned your motives and your rational for some of your antics in the past. Thatâs called reaching out to try and help you. Sorry, but a dead horse isnât worth beating.
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Again, there is a difference between Minmatar in Amarr slavery and Caldari planet being occupied by Gallente.
There could be a parallel if we took into consideration initial minmatars who were enslaved 700 years ago. They would be undoubtfully Minmatar people in Amarr possession. But these people are long dead. Even if we take into account generational slavery, they are eventually released as faithful citizens, correct? And by Empress Jamylâs decree all slaves past eight generation were released. That means those minmatar who are still enslaved are not enslaved because their ancestors were stolen from their worlds, but because they have committed some sort of crime or heresy on the territory of the Empire - since it happened about 200-300 years ago, way past occupation of Minmatar worlds. They were enslaved for what they did and not for whom they were. Thatâs not âjust Minmatarsâ, these are people and descendants of people who did something against the Empire.
And, really, how anyone could view a Caldari Prime as not being a Caldari planet? Thatâs our Homeworld!
You have Amarr Prime, Minmatars have their Pator, Gallente have their Gallente Prime. How would you think if Minmatars conquered Amarr Prime, held it in occupation, were destroying relics and holy sites? Would you think that this planet could ever be considered by someone as Minmatar planet?
Stealing something does not make it yours legally. Stolen planet is a stolen planet. It is ours and we will protect it from Gallente occupants.
Stolen people are stolen people. But current slaves in the Empire are not stolen people anymore - those who were stolen are long ago gone. Now those who are stolen - are slaves kidnapped by Minmatars and trafficked into Republic.
Gentlemen, above we have a great example of âargue with stupid people, and they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.â
Just do not engage her.
So why is everyone mad at Melisma now?
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Speaking for myself: she asked for money, then insulted my faith.
Isnât that like, an average day in Jita?
Difference is, I might have done it. After the Blood Raider attacks on Matar, Iâve donated some funds to the efforts already.
Well, youâve âimaginedâ wrong. And I didnât ask you because youâve never shown any interest in me before. And by the way, posting on the IGS doesnât count as âreaching out.â Anyone can do it. Even trash Thukker mercenaries. And I hope you donât think Iâm going to ask her for advice just because sheâs responded to one of my posts.
You and the rest of the Matari loyalists want to get mad about my hanging out with Amarr, without taking responsibility for the fact that you failed one of your own. You ignored my mails. You showed no interest in my work. This is on you. Donât try to pass on the responsibility.
Once again, thatâs not my concern. Do I need to quote Arrendisâs entire summary post so you can maybe read it?
Actually, the event wasnât revealed to be about citadel operating costs until after I spoke up. But you didnât read the thread before dogpiling on me, so whatever.
I guess paying them rent doesnât count?
Yes, you are absolutely qualified to make this call, because you know the first thing about my life and we hang out in person all the time.
Again: Replying to me on IGS does not count as reaching out. Thatâs not how friendships work. Thatâs not even how pen pals work. Itâs lazy and takes zero effort. If you were interested in helping me, youâd invest time in me. You can start by answering your griefdamn mails.
Absolutely, it would have been awesome. But it looks like Iâm not welcome.
Oh where to begin, where to beginâŚ
I guess the start.
Please, tell me where you need mercenaries? Others have been offered my PMCâs services as charities before and even now you would not be denied. Need any other help? I really cant help you. I can offer you ground forces, material aid and combat assistance in space, I honestly donât have much to offer aside from whatever I can pull from my own life experiences, including trying to be friendly with some of the groups your courting. It didnât go well. Then again, Iâm a combat pilot and FC by trade (remember, trying to be nice with our enemies didnât go well for me), if your going to continue to attack me Iâll gladly continue returning fire. The only other thing I could offer is contact with people who do more industrial work than I can even fathom.
Thats kinda funny you mention it, I donât find what your doing wrong by any means. I support it. I am a warrior for Our Republic. I fight so our descendants wont know war. If you can make that happen peacefully, you have no idea how much I would love that. I want peace, end of story. I tried nice, it didnât work, so Ill defend our borders with might. If you succeed where I didnât⌠Ya, you have no idea.
Emails? What emails? Iâm not denying they were sent, seriously I am unaware of them. If I did miss them, I am truly sorry, I would have answered them or offered help. I honestly donât know what your referring to off the top of my head however.
Would you like to have someone completely uninformed in your work stepping in and trying to advise you? Thatâs why my mouth has been shut. Its things I canât give you good information on. It would be a hindrance, not a help. Common courtesy is why I initially commented, that I can help you with.
You acted in a way I found distasteful. I responded. What is there to explain? You found the conduct some group who you are friendly with bad for selfish, childish reasons. You have me actually siding with people who shoot at me because it was so outlandishly childish and selfish sounding. No, I donât need you to take someone elseâs words (who also basically tried to rationalize with you why your position was childish mind you) to explain.
Read it the first day it was posted, understood where the money was going from day one actually. Mentioning the Ammatar Mandate Revitalization Project, the program their citadel on Tanoo II is based around would lead me to believe that was what money in a charity for that project would be going. Its common sense, what would seemingly be the most expensive part of the project would be what they are raising funds for. In this case, funding a citadel would be more costly than aid being ferried to the planet via an already established infrastructure. Dog piling would also imply I said something negative towards you. I said your words were not helping your reputation, not your actions. How is an observation an attack on you?
I own controlling stock in Eram 7 M13 Sebiestor Tribe Bureau!!! After all, I pay rent.
No, it doesnât.
Yes, I am quite qualified to decide that someone who can get worked up by⌠well that, is someone who seems like if they were in fleet under anyone, never mind my command would be extremely hard to work with in a small group where people have to work together. We donât need to be life long friends to have something like that be very apparent. I dunno, maybe someday but right now you donât seem to be acting rational.
Welp, I could let you simply make a fool of yourself, or I could actually chime in when its right. I feel like I chimed in when it was right. And again on the emails, I donât recall them, when I get the chance Iâll look again, maybe I missed them? Truly sorry if so.
To give you a little advice, and no Iâm really not trying to be condescending or really trying to be mean in any way. No one will help you without any effort on your end. No one helped me, or anyone else here without it being requested. Donât wait for the welcome wagon, its a long walk. Youâll get there, and while you shouldnât ask for a ride specifically, you wonât go hungry or thirsty if you ask your fellow traveler, for they were once too.
Its not entirely off the table, though well prolly talk before that day comes.
EDIT:
Went through 2 years of emails, nothing from you. I donât delete emails.
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Speaking for myself: the implication that collaboration is fine if you can prove the individuals involved are nice, invite us to parties, and do charity for the poor.
Also, re: involving kinswomen⌠Unitas is hiring. Talk to me about it any time.
EDITed to add: Iâm hiring in general, not just the kinswomen 
I donât pretend to know all the customs of the many thousands of clans of the Sebiestor.
We Vherokior were a desert people. Respect and dignity underpin the invitation of all into the tent. There are those who are also welcome to sit with the elders at the head of the family when the meal is served. They possess a known wisdom, prestige, an authority both descended and earned. They speak words of iron, or of silk. They do not demand respect, it is earned and thus given freely.
If I may personalise the concept by reference to people we know - though both are yet to visit the tents of the Vidaraltyrim - Arrendis possesses words of iron. She is a leader for a huge organisation spanning the stars, having fought legendary battles. As a warrior, her words require the respect of of the listener, and carry iron.
Chief Elsebeth Rhiannon speaks words of silk. Diplomatic, thoughtful, steeped in the wisdom of long service to the Republic and her clan. Both would be invited to sit with our elders and honoured. I do not need to have met them to know this. Their deeds and words are known.
Many millions read this channel and come to know us. Let us hope our words and deeds do us honour.
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This.
While I realize you do not intend if formally, honor demands I point out that I do not have the right of that title. Chief of Rhiannon flies under the callsign Aeron Morningstar. The commander of Unitas & EM forces is Debes Sparre (br.)
I thank you for the kind words.
To me, it seems like she feels strongly about a few things, and in the typical fashion of Galnet discussion, the people involved began responding to what everyone said, rather than wonder what they meant. Perhaps I am naĂŻve and overly invested in quiet community.
Do you listen to what anyone tells you? Ever? You have been corrected on this, countless times.
So, Iâll do so again.
The vast majority of Minmatar enslaved in the Empire are enslaved because they were born into it.
Slaves past 9th generation were released, yes. But we did not take all of the Minmatar in one single generation. That emancipation did not free all slaves who were taken from Matar. Jamylâs emancipation released only some, what was it, 10% of the total slave population? Less? And those were only the ones taken in the very beginning, the oldest lines. But we were raiding Minmatar worlds for centuries. There were 130 years between when we first encountered the Minmatar, and when we conquered Pator. We were enslaving people throughout those 130 years. Even after weâd occupied their territories, many remained technically free, a conquered people but not (yet) an enslaved one, even still technically ruled by a Minmatar government (the Nefantar Tribe). But as more Holders sought to increase their stocks, more and more of those were put in chains - and no, not for crimes (excepting their crime of being a member of an apostate race, which as I have told you before, you and all non-faithful Caldari also count as). Over centuries. Matar and its worlds were stables in which to-be slaves were kept and bred for eventual purchase by coreward Holders. This is why the generation of slaves varies so wildly. We did not just swoop in and enslave everyone all at once. We did it piece meal.
And thatâs before we get into that âgenerationâ isnât always determined by when a slave line was actually enslaved. Sometimes a Holder might record a line as a new generation after purchasing the line from another Holder, where the slaveâs generation refers to their length of time under a single Holder rather than the time since their lineâs initial enslavement. Sometimes if a slave starts a family with a Holderâs blessing, that might be considered a new family and thus the start of a new generation. The records can be complicated, as not everything in the Empire is completely uniform. Different Holders record things differently.
But regardless, the amount of Minmatar enslaved today, who were enslaved in their own life times for a crime they directly committed, are no more than a few percent of the total, at most. Because there are 11 trillion Minmatar slaves living in the Empire. Do you really believe the Empire is so incompetent, that some 15-25% of our population are committing crimes? And not just any crime, but crimes severe enough to warrant slavery? No. The vast majority of those, just like the majority of all Amarrian slaves, were born into it, descended from populations conquered by the Imperial crusades.
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I am not sure I ever heard THAT argument, Ms. Kernher, so if you told that already, probably really not to me.
So, besides your inane insulting attempt, I find the argument quite solid and have to admit, I didnât take that into account. However, it does raise questions.
For example, crimes in the Empire. In the State, for example, there is no notion about heresy. You can think and believe whatever you want - provided you wonât deface shrines of other people and wonât be making an ass of yourself, yelling at people who pray differently than you want them. But what I heard about Empire, interpreting scriptures in the wrong way means you could be arrested, maybe for being Sani or any other heretical cult based on non-canon interpretations. Thatâs why I myself avoid discussing scriptures like fire - because someone will definitely consider me a heretic, since I know about scriptures little to nothing - without any theological education - and will misrepresent them with 99.95% probability. And you know well better than me what they do to people whom they suspect in being Sani or something like that. I would say it is incredibly easy in the Empire to become a criminal, and whenever I visit the Empire baselining, I have a feeling I am walking on a mine field.
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This is true. However, most of those arrested for heresy are not enslaved. Even arrests themselves typically only come after the local community and church has attempted to correct the behavior directly. Following an arrest, a person is often taken to a re-education center, where theyâll be taught to correct themselves so they can ideally be returned to society with right beliefs.
Itâs the most zealous, the most stubborn, the most unwilling to change â or those who committed great crimes in the name of their heresy, like murder â who face a high likelihood of being enslaved. The Empire does have some level of capacity for forgiveness, and even I was given the chance to recant by my lord before I was formally charged with heresy.
You yourself would not be considered a heretic though, because you have never been of the faith. Those of apostate races can be excused their ignorance as they were never taught the faith, provided they arenât going around encouraging people into following beliefs contrary to the orthodoxy.
One thing I didnât mention, though, is also those who choose to voluntarily sell themselves into slavery, to escape poverty and homelessness. That makes up especially a large number of Athran and Khanid slaves. Fewer Minmatar, though, as those free Minmatar number in only small numbers, and many are⌠adverse to the idea of selling themselves back after having spent so many generations under chain.
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I always thought that the slavery was an answer for that. Said something wrong - BOOM, collar! But I have to say, I am glad that itâs not true. And no, I am not going to test that.
That makes sense. I still would prefer to avoid scripture discussions, and assaulting other people religions in the State is taboo.
I supposed that could happen. My information was just coming from a MIO representative about modern enslavement doctrines. Obviously they didnât say anything about self-enslavement or enslavement that happened in the past, so my information was just a piece of that picture.
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Cmdr Kim;
There is yet more complexity to this issue than even that which Ms. Kernher has indicated. She speaks of the raiding continuing for over a hundred years while the conquest occurred, and that is true. What she does not mention is that the slave raiding continues to this day.
Then there is the notion of these âgenerationsâ. All slaves of the 9th Generation and above were released. Once. Any children born to 8th Generation parents just one day later were not freed. And how is a slaveâs generation measured? From the most recent free ancestor.
A given individual has 512 great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents. If any one of those was free, a slave is at most of the 8th Generation, and was not freed. Given life expectancy in the Empireâeven among slavesâthat means that even without all of the accounting tricks Ms. Kernher has mentioned, a slaveâs most recently free ancestor could have been over three centuries ago, and it would still not have been enough.
That slave could have a lineage that extends back to the very first day of the attacks, to the Day of Darkness itself, but because their grandfather was taken in an âillegalâ slave raid only sixty years ago, or one of their great-great-great-great-grandparents was briefly free during the Rebellion, but recaptured (and thus, started their count over), they would not qualify. How many slaves rose up, only to have their world fall again to the Golden Fleet just because they were in Khanid, or Aridia, or some other area far from their more successful brothers and Federal assistance? They may all have needed to start over as âfirst generationâ slaves.
Or they may have been counted that way, centuries later, when greedy Holders who did not wish to give up their wealth played accounting games to evade the Empressâ decree.
They are our kin. They are our people. The Lawspeaker of my Clan, Anna the Elder, lost a brother to slave-raiding sixty years ago. He was a trader, part of the crew of a merchant vessel that was taken in Republic territory. Any children he was forced to sire are out there, enslaved, as are any children they have had. And he is not the only one, nor the most recent.
The Amarr claim the age of Reclaiming by the Sword is over, but the Amarr exist to serve the Empire. The Empire exists to serve God. And their God tells them:
Reject their God, and their God commands them to strike you down. For all their pretty words about patience, and talking, the command is clear. If you say âno thank youâ, you must die. Anything less makes a lie of their faith, and their honor.
The Amarr also say that these slavers are rogue elements. They say this is a tiny group of criminals, acting without orders. They lie, just as the Federation lies when it makes the exact same claims about their ârogueâ elements operating within the State. The Amarr are no different. They are an aggressive, expansionist power who believe that everyone should adhere to their ideals, and who are willing to use orbital bombardments on civilian populations to get their way. They are the Federation, with tacky gold plating.
I am not your friend, Commander. I have no desire to be your friend. But I have no reason to lie to you about this. Even were you to accept every word I say as the truth, it would not benefit me in any way. You are an honorable warrior, who proves the truth of her words by offering up her own body and ship to defend them. If you wish, I will stand, and likely be destroyed, for mine.
Work with them. They will help keep the State safe for as long as you are useful. But never, ever trust them. They are your enemies. They are everyoneâs enemies.
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So, as someone whoâs been a happy heathen in Amarr for ⌠uh, I think going on four years now without being struck down? Theyâre actually pretty patient about this. Not even Mr. Nauplius (whoâs a reliable voice for the most extreme possible interpretation of almost everything) has asked for such a thing.
The most Iâve gotten is a couple people wondering out loud when Iâm going to convert. (Answer: when/if I believe. So, not yet.)
Thatâs not quite true, though, is it?
If Ms. Kim comes to view her allies with suspicion, that benefits you actually kind of a lot-- especially if that means that other Caldari do the same. And while you might not desire Ms. Kim to be your friend, you definitely wouldnât be the first to suggest that their historical similarities might make the State and Republic natural allies.
My predecessor would likely have agreed with you, but, she was very afraid of the Amarr. She was very afraid of a lot of things, really.
My own experience doesnât suggest anything so dark. Heideran VII, the Pax Amarriaâs author, was the great peacemaker of his time. He saw another path for Amarr, and for New Eden as a whole: peace, trade, dialog.
I might not believe in their god, but I do admire the old emperorâs vision. Let the battles of the Reclaiming be fought with words instead of lasers. If the Amarr can conquer all humanity in such a way, perhaps they deserve to.
I wonât claim they havenât done, and donât continue to do, the stuff youâve been talking about. But itâs also worth noting that if the claim that ârogue elementsâ are acting without orders is a lie, itâs a lie the Amarr themselves believe. LUMEN was pretty enthusiastically involved in bringing down unsanctioned slave facilities last year, despite some peopleâs reluctance to trust us, and ultimately we really did a good bit. And we werenât punished for that by the Empire, even a little.
Maybe itâs all part of some grand deception, but for me thereâs no doubt that even the Holders here in LUMEN sincerely believe that the practice of slavery within the Empire must be handled correctly under Imperial law and custom, and that those taken in violation of those restrictions must be freed.
That the Empireâs leaders tend to have scruples like that makes me more willing to trust them. So, again, maybe itâs all calculation and trickery. But the masks are awfully consistent.
It seems like every empire has its shadowy underbelly, overseen by ruthless people. It seems like thereâs always a question about whether that shadowy underbelly is really the whole, and the rest is just a polite fiction. Probably the truth varies some with where you are, exactly, but, I havenât found the Empire to be any darker, in that respect, than other places.
Really, I think it might be brighter than most.
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Thats because of the gold everywhere.