Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

Fiction Portal Intergalactic Summit
3052

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I do not see it as a fundamental flaw within the Federal system of governance that you are making it out to be (making an assumption there, feel free to correct if it is wrong).

You are correct, and if a citizen does move over to another area of space in a different District, they will be represented by someone different than their original senator. However, I wouldn’t posit that is necessarily a drawback to the Federal system. The sub-district would elect a Senator that is local to them, and therefore has a greater understanding of their needs and requirements when representing them in the Senate.

In respect to my earlier point that member states can be tailor-made to the cultural requirements of their inhabitants as long as they comply with the terms set out in the Federal Charter and other instruments of Federal law. The member states are what the average person in the Federation will be interacting with on a daily basis, not the Federal Senate.

Additionally, organisations exist to promote and safeguard the welfare of those that reside in the Federation which are not bound to territorial jurisdictions only. My own identity as a Caldari is represented across the Federation by pan-Federal groups, as are the Matari, Mannar et al.

It might not be a perfect system, the Gallente would be the first to admit that. Before I got a grasp and witnessed it in operation myself I held nothing but disdain for it. But it is ever-changing and driven by the desire for self-improvement which as a Caldari, I have nothing but respect for.

1 Like
3053

If a Sansha Bloc existed at any time, it would have been during the days prior to the Grand Coalition against Nation.

I don’t feel that there would be much chance of it ever happening again. What we know of Nation and how they operate is fundamentally anathema to the Federation’s principles and firmly rejected by all that I know of in the Federation. This rejection has manifested in citizen’s, faced with the choice of mechanical enslavement, choosing to take their own lives as a means of preserving their own personal agency.

We also know from medical and psychological examinations of True Slaves that the mental conditioning (i.e. brainwashing) as well as the implantation process causes extreme damage to the individual that is all but irreversible, to the point that many choose to return to Nation or take their own lives. Outside of Nation, they are extremely unlikely to be able to take care of themselves, let alone form a functioning member state.

It is sad, it is unfortunate but that is the reality of the situation. The fate of True Slaves is barbarous, the damage done not only to them but to the families of those that were taken, unfathomable. Any ‘Sansha Bloc’ would rightfully be condemned in the Federation, just as they were in YC37/FC152.

1 Like
3054

I do not anticipate a “loyal” Sansha bloc forming in the Federation. Individuals attempting to form such a bloc would be given free star-seeing rides in unmarked haulers. Tragically, safety equipment on the haulers would fail.

The bloc I describe is not a Sansha Bloc so much as a “Sansha” bloc - as in ‘quote’Sansha’unquote’. It would be a consequence of choosing the high road instead of the low on a moral dilemma.

Steps:

  1. A catastrophic conflict destroys Nation’s ability to maintain mind control over its population.

  2. A large number of True Slaves escape from slavery and reestablish individual identities. Their original identities were destroyed by the process of enslavement, and they now identify as (former) “Sansha.”

  3. A number of these refugees reach the Federation.

  4. Moral Dilemma. I am confident the Federation would not kill the refugees directly. I am less confident it would resit “Not In My Solar System” pressures to keep them out (killing them indirectly). However, it is possible leadership would rise to the challenge and settle the refugees in quarantine systems under watchful eyes.

  5. After some prolonged period of isolation and treatment, likely over the course of many, many years, a naturalization process becomes available to these “Sansha.”

  6. After still more time, naturalized “Sansha” settle in sufficient numbers to elect their own leaders, form their own courts, and run their own lives (subject to constitutional limitations). After still more time, their numbers may increase to a point where they register at the federal level and a “Sansha” bloc forms.

All of that is extremely unlikely, but it is “not impossible.”

In related news, I am glad we have cleared up whether or not “military dictators” are “despots.” Despite not being the same, neither military dictators nor despots would spend much time contemplating the moral dilemma at step 4.

3055

Difference. Not flaw. I said we prefer our structure because we’re represented by our people. No matter where we are. Regardless of where I am in the Republic, I’m Stjörnauga, and I’m Sebiestor. Within my Tribe, my concerns are represented by the representative of the Stjörnauga. Within my nation, by the representative of the Sebiestor. That doesn’t change just because I move. My blood is always looking out for me, even at the national level.

All I said was that a system of government that allocates the power to speak for people by ‘where do you live?’ needs to control where people can live. Because when people move, who has power in their name changes. If everyone moved out of a certain district, the representative for that district would lose all influence in the Senate. Nobody’d care what he’s on about. So you have to protect your political power, and that means, you limit where people can go, and how freely they can settle new worlds.

3 Likes
3056

Federal Citizens are represented by individuals that are elected by their peers, within areas that they have grown up in and would appreciate the needs and requirements of those specific areas. Within the Member State, either through elected representatives in a representative or hybrid democracy, or through directly making their opinions known through a direct democratic system (also hybrids, to a degree). Within the District through the apparatus of the Member State, or throughout the other means of redress such as involving the system governors, or through legal means such as the Courts.

They are represented by those that are chosen from within their ranks - which is how it should be. The Federation has a poor record in regards to certain areas exhibiting undue influence over the other areas, which is why the system was reformed to ensure that localities were able to take better charge of their own affairs. Better to have individuals that at least live amongst and are accountable to the people they represent, rather than reside light years away and be out of touch with the needs of the people on the ground.

Except that the Federation doesn’t control where people can live. Freedom of Movement is a fundamental aspect of the Federal Constitution - rights that are guaranteed to each and every citizen - they are more than welcome to leave a member state/District for another and still be entitled to receive the same assistance and representation.

Your point about higher authorities preventing movement to safeguard political power is… a non-issue in the Federation. Even for a small sub-district, their voice is still as valid as the largest. Their votes count just as equally as any other sub-District in the Federation, irrespective of population imbalances.

2 Likes
3057

Indeed, Freedom of Movement and Freedom of Association are among the most defining features of federal constitutional systems. Top-level courts require an extremely compelling reason to allow anyone, up to and including the federal executive and legislative branches, to limit these freedoms. Any component jurisdiction that wants to constrain movement largely has a single option: to leave.

1 Like
3058

So Federal citizens can go and settle on any world they like, plunk down a flag, and declare ‘THIS is Federation territory now’?

See, as a Sebiestor outside of the Republic, my interests before the Tribal Council are still seen to by my Chief. By the system you’ve described1, Federal citizens living outside the Federation… well, they’re just screwed in the Senate.

1. Incidentally, ‘within areas that they have grown up in and would appreciate the needs and requirements of those specific areas’? So if someone grows up in Luminaire, they can only ever represent Luminaire? That seems odd.

3059

It’s been a considerable amount of time since we have seen new star systems accede to the Federal Charter and join the Federation. I will use the example of Solitude as that is the most recent one, I would believe.

Solitude was founded by those looking to settle the frontier, or by those seeking to leave the Federation for a land in which they could govern themselves. All sorts moved out to that region - not necessarily to expand Federal influence as many wanted nothing to do with it, but to find a place to call their own. It’s a story that isn’t unique to Solitude - many areas in the present-day Federation were settled that way through a mix of public and private enterprise.

Anyway, the Pirate Invasion of Solitude happened, the Federation Navy repulsed them. By popular vote, the settlements in Solitude agreed to the terms of the Charter and Constitution and formally joined the Federation with their member states. I’m simplifying the story, it is always more complicated than the briefest of descriptions, but telling the full story (which I wouldn’t know) would likely encompass several tomes.

In theory, yes - if the colony in question is founded outside of existing Federal borders and they eventually decide to request ascension to the Federation, it is entirely possible that the Federal Administration will consider their request and eventually seek to claim the system on the basis it’s inhabitants have chosen to join.

This is also the case within the Federation’s territory. There are plenty of unorganised territories and unpopulated areas that may fall under the jurisdiction of another member state or a District authority. If a colony is started in those areas and grows to the extent it can self-govern, the Fed fully supports the right of that colony to declare independence and establish itself as a member state through the ascension process.

If a Citizen is living outside of the Federation, but remains a citizen, they are likely registered to a member state. Therefore their representation in the Federal Senate would be the relevant Sub-District which represents that member state.

My point was that societies are likely to elect someone that would understand their circumstances, their cultures, way of life etc. The most likely individual would be someone who hails from that sub-district. That doesn’t mean an immigrant into the Sub couldn’t attain that position, but they would have to prove themselves, like all Senators do.

I wish Triss was still around to describe the system - she had a marvellous method which puts me comparably to shame.

1 Like
3060

In addition, they would receive absentee ballots allowing them to participate in the selection of representatives for their registered district. Members of the military stationed outside of Federation territory make particular use of such ballots. As with all of the major powers, the interests of citizens living abroad are further represented by the executive branch, up to and including the Office of the President.

You are doing quite well sir, and probably deserve a fancy medal.

1 Like
3061

Since memberstates are being discussed, as well as the ascension process…

I’d like to see someone actually sell me on the positives of undergoing the process, and how they outweigh the negatives, from two separate perspectives.

Firstly, from the perspective of a colonial director of a thriving, and well funded colonial setup and its adjacent infrastructures, such as that which I run in Eugales… What benefits of uplift and Ascension would be gained other than representation in GalFed affairs and voting/electoral rights. What protections would be levied to help offset the increased risk of targetting from say, the Serpentis, or Caldari State affiliated subgroups that may stand to gain from aggressive action, or other similar? What benefits would come from taxes paid to GalFed that would endear either myself, or those that are charged under my care, to want to undergo this process.

Secondly, from the perspective of a foreign diplomat, of which I also am, who is the primary liaison, contact, and representative between my homeworld, and much of the wider cluster, how could I be persuaded to convince those that entrusted me with such responsibility that trying to pursue that for my homeworld perhaps, would be worth while, and how would the benefits outweigh potential detriments similarly.

If any of your points in trying to convince me boil down to ‘or else,’ or imply coercive measures to push compliance, you’ll have already failed to convince me.

I’m open to any Gallente loyalist to bring their thoughts to the table on that.

3062

I can think of no benefit (or mechanism) for capsuleer colonies becoming member states. Capsuleers are “regulated” by CONCORD, and CONCORD’s regulations are preemptive.

Since we have run through a civics lesson on the Federation, I’d like to see someone actually lay out the governmental functions of another faction.

In the Republic (which is no longer organized as a republic), each tribe has a “chief,” and each of the seven dominant tribes send five representatives to the Tribal Council. There is a “ceremonial” Head Of State and a separate prime minister.

Is the prime minister one of the thirty five representatives who has been elevated (and who must then be replaced); or do the 35 representatives cut out a step by choosing a Tribe to send a sixth person to the Council?

With respect to a single tribe, the chief would appear to serve as what we would call “executive.” The roles we understand for an “executive” include overseeing the federal agencies, spending money allocated by the legislature, enforcing laws written by the legislator and interpreted by the courts, managing foreign affairs, commanding the military, and attending tea parties.

Does each tribal chief perform all of these functions for their tribe?

Regarding the tribe’s own laws, is there a separate “legislative” body, or does the chief both create and enforce the tribal laws? If there is a separate legislative body, how are its members chosen? Do the laws passed by the 35 members of the Tribal Council preempt tribal laws when the two come into conflict; or, is it the other way around? Who determines the extent of the conflict and how it relates to the dispute being adjudicated?

For that matter, is there a separate “judicial” branch, or does the chief create, enforce, and interpret the tribal laws? If there is a separate judicial branch, how are judges selected? Does tribe’s judiciary (or chief) interpret both tribal laws and those passed by the Tribal Council? Presumably, the answer to conflict between the tribe and Council is the same as above, but what happens when there is a legal conflict between different tribes?

3063

See now, this makes no sense to me. If the citizen moves around within the Federation, their representation changes, based on the theory that the representative will know the needs of the place, not the people, but if they’re outside the Federation, somehow their representative—who is nowhere near them—is supposed to understand and meet the needs of the people, even if they’re not in the place?

3 Likes
3064

There is at least one example of people trying to leave and getting orbital bombardment for it…

1 Like
3065

They made it! Success is possible. Besides, techniques have changed. It’s more about crippling disruptions to the supply chain, now, and I am certain favorable trade terms could be negotiated with the Amarrians.

3066

Ah, yes, ‘try to leave, and you can watch your children starve’. That’s supposed to be a change in technique from a planet-wide blockade that kept food from reaching Caldari Prime, right?

3 Likes
3067

Sometimes it is important to keep up with the changing sensibilities of the times.

3068

Free cheese is available to planets that fill out the right grievance forms.

3069

I was saddened to learn that you blew up a Kybernaut structure without inviting me, @Lunarisse_Aspenstar . Next time, maybe?

3070

Neither of them are our friends. Both seen to treat us more like resources at best, and beneath their notice at worst. Triglavians communicate more than the Drifters, but that seems to have blinded some people to the fact that they similarly only talk to us if it serves whatever purpose they have in mind. Evidently, they have not discussed about what they are doing with our stars or populations, and peace treaty was never an option.

It would seem we are in between a slow clash of titans, and no matter who wins, we lose all the same.
Only good xeno is a dead xeno.

2 Likes
3071

I agree with this attitude.

Being my enemy’s enemy doesn’t necessarily make anyone friendly. While I try to be practical and am often willing to point my guns in the same direction as some of those I may not particularly like if one party is more dangerous right now, I’m not sure the Triglavians are less dangerous than the Drifters.

Triglavians have severed our gate connections to 27 systems and stranded their remaining people in abyssal hellscapes. The Drifters… I don’t like them, but I really don’t particularly care about them one way or another at the moment. Not enough to go out of my way. They’re certainly dangerous, but don’t seem as ambitious as the Triglavians. If I had to choose between the two as for who to wipe out, I’d end the Triglavians. Not that I’d mind both groups vanishing forever.

4 Likes