Bringing this over to its own topic from Off-Topic to promote a proper discussion instead of letting it be buried.
What it says on the tin and the above self-quote. I’d like someone of GalFed alignment to convince me of the merits, both for an independent colony and adjacent infrastructure, and a far flung homeworld, for joining the Gallente Federation proper.
"Caldari affiliated subgroups "
…and I took that personally
This was aimed at the likes of Lai Dai Protection Services and the Onikanabo Brigade, of whom were involved in the Intaki Crisis, of which showed quite many failings and detriments of memberstate status in my eye, @Reiko_Shi , this was in no way aimed at your organization which has, to my knowledge acted quite strongly in honorable conduct and action. I apologize for any perceived offense toward you dear.
Ms. Brezia, firstly I would like to commend this openness to discuss such a matter. I know we have spoken a few times on the matter in private, but presenting it on a public platform gives me hope for the future. Secondly, I would like to commend what you have done with your colony and the wider Eugales system itself over the past few years. Frontier systems can be a cruel and isolated place on their own, let alone with the above threats you have mentioned.
My first point and the most important point in my humble opinion is that you and your colony would be the first-ever Capsuleer colony to ascend. Your success in this endeavor would be the cornerstone for future capsuleers trying to better themselves and give back to their people. An accolade that would no doubt bring weight to future projects.
The benefits of having a say in Federation policies yourself and for your people to vote is no small matter. Deciding your own fate through democracy is a boon many unfortunately don’t have. Also becoming a reconsigned member state will bring added protection. An attack on you would be an attack on the Federation.
Your second point I believe relies on you. What better way to persuade those of your homeworld than showing them your success?
For anyone who for some sort of awkward reason would like to join an embarassement called Gallente Federation, I would like to remind you:
The Gallente Federation is currently in a state of WAR with Caldari State and Amarr Empire. With Gallente Federation having stance of an aggressor in the ongoing conflict, their assets and allies are to share responsibility for the crimes of Gallente Federation.
Those who will join the Federation willingly (and not by coercion or hostile takeover) will be considered agressors and invaders as well, and will be dealt with accordingly.
I’d dispute this bit particularly… if you are unaware, in recent memory, a founding homeworld and memberstate was quite thoroughly brutalized. Intaki, during the crisis wherein Onikanabo Brigade and Lai Dai Protection Services raided Intaki Prime, and it fell to third parties to intervene well before the Federal Administration, Marines, or Navy lifted a finger, and by the time they did join in things, it was already well past the point it would have helped at all. Even with the limitations imposed by existing treaties, negotiations, and the relevant Militia Conflict agreements, this is egregious and says a great deal to me about any percieved increase in protection or security that may be gained.
With respect Strike Commander, While the Militia Conflicts are indeed a semi-active contention and contestation with thousands minimum dying daily, to call it a proper war is rather entertaining. A true war would preclude any cross border trade from happening, which Trade between the Federation, State, and Amarr Empire occurs constantly with even more individuals passing the borders daily than are slain in the militia conflict by some orders of magnitude. Which there can be many statements made about that state of affairs, but doesn’t change it. Joining GalFed or the State in any particularly official capacity does not instigate a war proper war scenario… only if say, capsuleer representative portion of UNF joined the Militia Conflict through established mechanisms would that put us at direct odds with The State as a whole.
You know what is more entertaining?
Watching some people considering joining an aggressor nation, claiming their war is “joke” but then crying when they are dragged in front of tribunal for their deeds, telling everyone they had no idea what they were doing.
Oh, well, please excuse us for not hearing the Greatest Strategist of All the Time Lauralite Anna Brezia! At once we will start building the Great Brezia Space Wall to prevent all these pesky gallente traders from slipping into our space!..
NOT.
Capsuleers by default are indies.
Of course, joining militia means pledging your allegiance to the faction. And CONCORD stops protecting you from hostile faction, instead your Navy does that.
If any capsuleer will somehow manage to join faction without joining the militia… it still will mean that they shouldn’t be protected by CONCORD anymore, and shall be protected by their respective faction.
And, you know, maybe Gallente aren’t that smart either and, luckily, they haven’t built the Great Brezia Space Wall to prevent us from coming there, so I can say I did travel to Federation, and a lot… and I killed plenty of that Federal Navy that was supposed to protect Federals from us.
But there is another thing you should consider, since, if I am not mistaken, you’re based in low security space. If you’re a capsuleer… neither CONCORD, nor any faction will be protecting capsuleer there.
And what we capsuleers do in low security space? We can just kill each other without any war declaration. It’s just a matter of being red or blue… and for some - it’s a matter of being purple or not. Different people have different rules of engagements. People like me, for example, tend to attack only those who are our enemies. And we know three ways to determine who are enemies of the State:
In the end of the day, it’s for us, capsuleers, to decide, whom we will mark as blue or red and why. Our job in warzone is to provide security of space from all sort of Gallente invaders. And we do destroy gallente facilities even owned by neutral pilots, only because they allow FDU pilots to dock. We are taking decisions by ourselves based on the information we obtain through intel operations without waiting for CONCORD or the State to mark said ‘neutral’ structures as hostile. We know they’re hostile and we act accordingly. We make our choices. And you make yours.
For sure I wasn’t implying that there will be a huge Caldari Navy baseline fleet attacking any of your structures. That would be for sure unneded loss of life by the State. And you really shouldn’t be worried about State sending baseline vessels against you, actually I myself would quite object against this. Capsuleers shall be dealt with by other capsuleers, not baseliners.
In any case, I will be watching the situation with anticipation.
Interestingly, you going on your rant proves a point I’ve seen… you are quite blinded by your singleminded nationalistic outlook.
And I am a capsuleer, and indeed combat in space is a commonality many of us share in varying capacities.
But this thread is not for discussing that, nor is it a platform for you to spread your own ideological outlook, it is, specifically to discuss the merits of applying for memberstate status of baseline heavy locales, one of which I have a heavy hand in the administration of, one of which I hold sway but am more generally representative of. if you have nothing else to contribute but your usual, I’d ask you move along to other threads and abstain from further responses here.
Looking at this question from a purely legal perspective, the analysis would depend on how beneficial the terms of the agreement between the colony and whichever authority is regulating it are, as compared with the rights and obligations of Member States.
That agreement might be with: (A) the government of a Member State; or (B) in an unorganised system like Eugales, the government of the relevant District. I suspect in this case you might be dealing with either the Principality of Archavoinet or the District of Pegeler.
I am not sure what the specific terms of your agreement are but it is usually safe to assume that baseliner owned businesses in your colony will be subject to a degree of import and export tariffs on their dealings with neighbours. Membership would, at the very least, afford them the benefit of frictionless trade.
Ms. Brezia, while I am sure it is not your intention, I can’t help but sense a sort of…I’m not sure how to describe it…superiority coming from your original post? Condescending tone, perhaps? Again, I am sure this is not your intention, but in my experience the “prove to me why I should be a part of your organization” line is best reserved for human resources officers interviewing potential recruits - not the other way around.
With that out of the way, hmm… I suppose Ms. Menkalinan explained the basics succinctly enough. Forgive me for not being aware of the intricacies of the local politics in Eugales, but if the colonists under your umbrella do conduct trade with neighboring Federal entities it may be to their benefit to be officially part of the Federation to, among other things Ms. Menkalinan did not mention, have access to frictionless trade. If, however, there exists some tension between UNF colonists and the locals, perhaps applying to be recognized as a Federal member state might help to alleviate any fear or paranoia the locals might feel towards your organization doing expansive developments right next door to them?
As for the fear you may have to the perceived lack of Federation intervention to support its member states, I would argue that it is best to look past the Intaki Assembly and its associated colonies. That is a special case whose complexities probably deserves a thread in its own right. Those Intaki do have a rather long history of… causing issues. Moreover, with the recent election of President Aguard, it would seem that there is a sentiment in motion to further develop and secure systems closer to the frontiers of Federation space. I believe Eugales would likely qualify for such endeavors if and when the current presidential administration makes any announcements.
Pulling on this part specifically, there indeed is some condescension I admit, but there is indeed a reason. I’ve been approached by a few political lobbyists over the years about the prospects of it. Trying to talk the benefits and great things that come with becoming such. Most, have been looking to add a prominent note to their careers, and get particularly upset when their statements have been challenged. The condescension comes mainly from the annoyance of those previous attempts to sway my decision making.
I am also fully aware of the politically complex nature of the Intaki people’s membership within the Gallente Federation, and the lack of intervention there is part of that complexity, but also still worth noting as significant because it remains a homeworld of importance with the Federation.
This all said, I still am waiting for some convincing arguments. The frictionless trade is a good one, as it would allow groups that now fall under UNF umbrella such as Fricourt Aerospace and DysTek Armories easier access to some markets across the constellation and further… but that’s a specific bit to Eugales and planet VI of course, which seems to be the main interest point for many in the discussion anyway.
Quite a toxic slanderous reply, I guess you’re the right sort to join the Federation. Good people would never join that abomination, but your types… can surely find home there. We in the civilized cluster don’t need your kind here.
The only good merit for applying for memberstate status of baseline heavy locales, is that it will be a filter that will sort out good people from the scum. Another good thing about baseliners who will admit themselves into becoming the scum, is that they don’t return when they are eliminated.
Your suggestion have been weighted, measured and found lacking.
The Ascension process isn’t something that should be undertaken lightly, although it is expected that this will be the eventual outcome for any colony founded with a sense of permanency. You are right to make the ask - what’s the catch? What will be expected of us? What benefit will we get? I hope that my response to your query will leave you with a positive assessment of the benefits of Ascension.
The first step to Ascension, from my reading of how the Commonwealth ascended from a colonial endeavour financed from Luminaire to a self-governing member state in it’s own right, is ensuring that the colony is able to govern itself properly and effectively. This would go hand in hand with the requirement that it can sustain itself to a certain degree befitting that of a member state, rather than be wholly reliant on the metropole, to ensure that the standard of living for those living there is not prejudiced through avoidable factors.
The agreement to abide by the terms of the Federal Charter/Constitution and Federal law would also be a precondition - although ‘opt-out’ clauses do exist. The prospective member state, or a nation-state outside of the Federation seeking to join the Union, should review these articles as they would form the basis of the contractual arrangement between them and the Federation.
Politically - you are correct, voting rights/representation. However, this should already be the case as it is the sponsoring member state/District Parliament’s responsibility to ensure that those living in the colonies under their care have the same rights as anyone else in the Federation. For your homeworld’s circumstance, it would enable them to have their say in the governance of the Federation, as well as a mouthpiece for the needs of the population. The rights of the individual are enshrined in the Constitution, rights that are inalienable and protected through the District and Supreme Courts.
The sovereignty of the member state would also be guaranteed through the political and military protection of the Federation. Indeed, member states are sovereign entities in their own right and can choose a system that best fits into their culture, as long as it is democratic in some form (keeping in compliance with the Charter/Constitution).
Economically, the Federation is the largest economy in New Eden and interstellar trade is the lifeblood that circulates in its arteries and capillaries. The economic well-being of it’s member states are of paramount importance, with numerous Federal incentives and schemes able to assist them economically as long as consent is given by the member state. The advantages of access to this network have been previously stated by others in this thread: frictionless trade, co-operation with other member states and raising the standard of living for all.
As for the protection offered by the Federation, you are quite right to be suspect of it’s effectiveness due to the Intaki Crisis in YC121. Intaki was the victim of the state of affairs that was enabled by the Invasions of YC110, as is the case with the rest of those worlds that falls under the Federal Defence Cordon as part of the CEMWPA legislation foisted upon the Federation. That the system was under the control of the State Protectorate enabled Lai Dai to carry out their work without intervention by the Federation. If any reason is good enough to bring an end to this brushfire conflict, it would be to preserve the dignity and rights of those member states in Essence, Placid and Verge Vendor.
That said, history is replete with examples of the Federation coming to the aid of it’s member states in times of need. Sinq Laison and Verge Vendor were liberated from the harshness of State military rule during the Interstellar War by the Federation. They were instrumental in bringing an end to the war that was fought between the Commonwealth and the Republic on Assiettes Six. The Invasion of Rattilose by House Kador’s Fleet was repulsed by the Federation Navy. The coup by colonial militia officers that deposed a legitimately elected government on Vevelonel was suppressed by Federal Marines as Federal aid to the civil power. The Triglavian Invasions saw the largest deployment of Federal Navy forces for decades to meet it’s obligations to it’s signatories.
There are failures, yes. The Federation is not perfect. You only have to look at our history. Our failures are laid bare for all to see and for those to judge us on. We do not forget what we have done, or failed to do. Our failures will drive us to continuously strive for improvement to not only better ourselves at the Federal level, but also to ensure that the individual and the member state continues to benefit from their choice to be a part of this Federation of ours.
Consent is key - it is at the heart of this Union and forever will be. Ultimately the choice of whether to ascend to a member state, or for a foreign state to initiate the proceedings to join the Federation, lies with the people. Know that whilst we can make the case for Ascension, the decision will be yours to make.
Having seen some of the discourse which occurred in this thread, I am going to focus on the initial post instead. There are two questions I would be asking myself in your position.
Firstly, do you object to Federal interference with the governance of your homeworld?
Secondly, does your homeworld value it’s culture enough to shield it from the melting pot?
If the answer to both of those questions is no, then what is stopping you?
I feel like I am going to be coming at this question from a different angle: why should we convince you?
The Federation’s freedoms, aspirations, intentions are clearly stated in our Charter. The Four Freedoms of Thought, Expression, Association, and Movement are not Federal rights, but human rights, innate to the human condition. Elsewhere in the cluster we can see oppressive regimes that exist only to oppress humanity. It is to these regimes that the Federation stands opposed.
I’d rather you explain what qualities and merits you bring to the Federation, how you will fit into our society, how committed are your people to the ideals of the Federation. I am not asking this as some elitist gatekeeper; rather I welcome all those who love freedom! However, if you want me to give you a cost/benefit analysis regarding taxes, then you’ve already missed the point.
I appreciate you taking the time to put together your thoughts on the matter Commander Adams, and even more appreciate how well put together it is overall. You’ve given me much to consider here.
Hm. Why should you convince us. A good question. Perhaps because that exact question reeks of elitism in and aggrandizement. It speaks to a certain nationalistic outlook and belief that ‘we can do no wrong because we are the best, so you have to prove to us, that you’re worth bringing in.’ This isn’t me calling you a U-Nat mind, there are several flavours of nationalism across a spectrum.
While it should be considered what the colony in Eugales, or my homeworld further out could bring to the table in all this, I’d appreciate some self-awareness at least that the Federation isn’t this perfect representation of its ideals.
The point of me asking these questions is exactly because, even with GalFeds ideals, it is where it fails to meet those ideals that gives me reason to ask in turn what is there to gain, and what is there to lose in turn, for joining. And having people try to tell me I don’t have to be convinced, you do, is not going to give me reasons to consider it, in fact it gives me reasons to push away from wanting to consider the course of action. So, I feel that it is you who missed the point here for this discussion.
Does it? Speaking as an immigrant myself, I read it only as “Hang on, we’re pretty open about what we are and what we stand for, so who are you to demand that we tell you stuff that’s already out in the open?”
I left Amarr behind because it no longer fits me. I didn’t go to the Republic or the State because they were built for their people, and I am Not One Of Them. I came to the Federation because its stated ideals were attractive to me. Either that’s true for you too, or it’s not. Either way, asking people to make up your mind for you is kind of an intrusion upon them isn’t it?
Ms. Parvi, thank you for bringing your outlook into this, and it is one I respect. Your choice to join the Gallente Federation on merit of its ideals is a valid one at an individual scale.
Unfortunately, I also have to weigh up more than just my thoughts as an individual in this. Which is where the real sticking point comes from of asking these assorted questions.
I respect GalFed for HAVING the ideals it does. A good bit even, but it isn’t all sunshine and rainbows and happy songs. Nothing in this cluster is, and when weighing the future course of hundreds of millions(in the case of the colony across Eugales VI and its growing orbital infrastructure), or tens of billions(in the case of my homeworld), you cannot simply take something on ideals alone, much as one might wish to.