The CONCORD-Nation War occurred long Before Infomorphic Cloning was a technology that was widely Available to the New Eden powers, did it not ?
So, if the Sansha Kuvakei is a Real Backup or Copy of the Sansha Kuvakei, then, he must have been Infomorphically Cloned prior to such Technology being proliferated across New Eden, yes ?
Which Points to a Sansha Kuvakei having been Backed Up or Copied by Jovian elements, possibly for Research Purposes, prior to the apparent Death of the Sansha Kuvakei at the Culmination of the 1st CONCORD-Nation War, a Corpse of the Sansha Kuvakei being retrieved by forces of the Gallente Federation, does it Not ?
Thus, the Sansha Kuvakei may be an Escaped Patient/Prisoner from a Jovian Psychological Research Facility, rather than the Actual Sansha Kuvakei, yes
No, see, that kind of egotist would be more likely to make sure he’s got his infomorph backed up, because he’s indispensable. He can’t argue that the empires striking him down would be impossible, because it’s already happened the once. No, instead, his coping mechanism for that would turn to ‘they can’t really kill me, because even if they do, I’ve got ME ready for them!’
And Kuvakei was an early pioneer in a lot of the fields that made his True Slaves possible.
I read it a little differently, Arrendis. If a person has the kind of ego to see themselves as qualified to edit all of humanity, well, you don’t want to mess with perfection, right? So the kinds of tools they don’t hesitate to use on others, they might be very reluctant to apply to themselves, especially the ones that in some way touch the mind.
Such a person might leave their fate very much up to fate. After all, fate has chosen them for this great destiny, right? If they’re right about their great purpose, they can’t possibly fail.
Obviously all speculation and I agree that it would take a pretty high degree of foolishness, just, I wouldn’t be floored if at some point somebody killed him and he turned out to have been the only one.
I’ve never been afraid to reveal the extent of my ignorance on a topic, but it struck me that the Triglavians and their kybernaut minions, talked a lot about their “ancient homelands” and so on, and yet, I cannot ever remember reading any archaeological papers about sites or artifacts in e.g. Vale, that pointed to any signs of prior settlement by any civilisation.
Vale was a pretty densely populated system, so if there was any archaeological stuff there, it would have been noticed, probably.
I mean, I’d buy the argument that in e.g. Amarr space, they’d cover up evidence of prior civilisations.
But Gallente space ? Have you ever known a Gallente to pass up an opportunity to tell you about something they did ? Discovering ancient ruins would be the kind of thing that a Gallente academic could make a hugely popular career from.
So the apparent lack of such a thing makes me question whether the Triglavians ever did inhabit these "ancient homelands ".
Or I might just be ignorant of such discoveries, and it is a gap in my knowledge.
Not that that has ever stopped me having An Opinion about something.
Fate - Destiny - Predestination - Fortune and other words are very close, but mean a lot of things for a lot of people.
In matters of Scripture, i am not the best person to say what exactly the Amarr think about the terms, but to say that it doesn’t show up around the cluster is a very heavy handed affirmation.
I mentioned the Amarr because it would be more in line with your socio-cultural background, the Caldari most certainly have those concepts or similar ones in their culture and practices, and i would not doubt if the Gallente and Minmatar also had.
Amarr do not believe in individual predestination. We believe in a choice between the Plan of God which is the Truth and Rejection of God’s Plan which is Evil and False.
For example, the binary in the Book of Reclaiming runs as follows: “So the Lord / sent forth the Chosen, / to bring forth the light of faith / And those who embrace God’s love / Shall be saved by grace / For we are God’s shepherds in the darkness / God’s Angels of Mercy. / But those who turn away from God’s light, / And reject God’s true word / Shall be struck down by God’s wrath / For we are God’s retribution incarnate / God’s Angels of Vengeance.” (Reclaiming 4:45)
This sort of emphasis on choice between truth and falsehood appears everywhere in Amarr.
What we have seen from the Triglav converts prioritizes some sort of constant conflict of ideas, bodies, ships and so on. Calling this endless conflict and negative competition the destiny of humanity is one of the most morally bankrupt philosophies I have ever encountered, and that is saying something when the Federation exists.
I was under the impression that there was a creator plan (or at least desired destination) and that not only one should achieve that (or go into that direction) but also point the way to wayward others.
A desired end result (even if outside the scope of the individual, maintaining “free will”[problematic concept]) would be considered by some a pre-destination.
It seems it is not the case there then. Omniscience is overpowered after all.
As for the Triglavian supporter affirmation, he is of Gallente origin, with a lot of focus at rethoric rather than something more… concrete. It may go well to his audience.
My point is that the concept of predestination is not an unknown one in our cluster, as stated.
There is a whole lot of discussion as to the extent of free will, the influence of bio-psycho-social factors, and hard determinists that consider that the human behaviour mimics the universe and its laws (as above so below) in a set of algorithmic responses mediated by biochemical interactions.
But again, the topic was not free will, but the
inexistence of the concept of predestination within the cluster.
We know that the Telos/End/Destiny of Amarr so long as we maintain the faith is the restoration of Unity with God, but we don’t know the timeline and that unity will come as a result of human choices to bring themselves and others back into Rightness with God.
But there is no certainty that we will meet this ongoing test of Faith. It is more a conditional “If we maintain the faith, if we follow the divine order, then we cannot fail.” Junip’s “We cannot fail, for we have the Emperor to lead us and destiny to follow” still allows for failure if people refuse to follow the divine order.
Well, it’s an awfully good thing that nobody actually said that, isn’t it?
Subcommander Foucault was not talking about the concept of Proving as the “destiny of humanity.” He was talking about the Triglavians themselves.
Triglavians generally, and the Troikas specifically, are biologically distinct beings much different than (A) what you call “baseliner” humans, and/or (B) Empyrean capsuleers/kybernauts. They are three formerly separate intelligences melded together into a singular being, greater than the sum of its parts.
Proving, in contrast, is simply a technique. A philosophical approach to confronting new or conflicting paradigms: all contenders treated with equal respect, and allowed fullest expression in confrontation with others, until the strengths and weaknesses of every competitor are charted in full. Sometimes the competitors are ideas; sometimes policies; and sometimes, the competitors are actual combatants. All of them are given the equal opportunity to prove merit.
That said, I understand your concern. For a die-hard Amarrian loyalist, a philosophy based on actual merit rather than on parentage, patronage, and religious magical thinking would seem awfully threatening, indeed.
would indicate that the Triglavians’ methods and approach are inferior, as they only took 27 of the over 150 systems they attacked. A success rate of less than 1 in 5 isn’t exactly proof of merit.
This will result in a selection process that promotes the ability to damage others over the ability to build anything positive at all.
Also the idea that everyone is starting with an equal chance is absurd. At least my “parentage, patronage, and religious magical thinking” does not lead me to expect those who have been born in a lower caste of society to perform on the same playing field as those who have been given every priviledge their entire lives.
Oh God— who do you think you are kidding? I am Ni-Kunni. I was born to the sand of Mishi IV, and the dust is my only inheritance.
Every advantage and opportunity that True Amarr are handed at birth I had to fight to obtain - by sweat, by cunning, or by sheer ruthlessness. My whole life in the Empire I had to work twice as hard to get half as much.
So spare me your faux-liberalist attitudes and condescension. Amarrian society doesn’t just acknowledge that the lower classes lack the advantages of a level playing field: it grades the playing field constantly to make sure it ■■■■■■■ STAYS that way.
And as for your religious magical thinking? Well, it certainly is convenient that God favors the Amarr over all others! After all, come the great Reclamation, it just wouldn’t do if those uppity other races started to think of themselves as equally worthy, now would it?
Don’t talk to me about moral bankruptcy. I’m Amarrian. I was raised in it.
If you think I am faux-liberalist, or any sort of liberalist, then you don’t understand me at all.
You being never able to move above your station is as it should have been. We all have our place in the great order of things. It sounds like you tried to get more than others at your station, which is always a worrying sign. But I doubt you became a capsuleer by your own sweat, cunning, and ruthlessness alone. Someone privledged you over others for that to happen.
And yet, if you understand a non-even field, how do you possibly think the Triglavians offer one? The difference between the starting point for your success and that of one of the people stuck on Skarkon being bioadapted against their will is far further from an even playing field than the distance between my lowest subject and myself.
Evolution is not about becoming better, and adaptation is always in context. There is no such thing as “better adapted” without specifying adapted to what. Species do not evolve to become more ideal versions of themselves, they evolve to fill a particular, sometimes a very narrow, niche.
The Triglavians seem highly specialized. They dwell in complex constructs. They need to change the very stars to make a dwelling compatible, and while it might seem that the mutaplasmid tech they use to adapt themselves to various circumstances makes them versatile, it actually also means they need to alter themselves to achieve that versatility, instead of just changing technology outside of their bodies.
Like capsuleers, Triglavians fill a niche. We are perfectly suitable for those niches, for controlling pods with our brains, for living in Abyssal hell. We are marvels of technology and, yes, adaptation. But we are not the “future of humanity”.
Baseline humans of other empires might seem (be) “primitive” in contrast, but they are also very widely spread, to all kinds of star systems, to all kinds of environments. They are extremely versatile - and without mutaplasmids or fancy implants, too.
When conditions change, the less specialized species, the one less dependent on adaptation to its particular niche, is the one likelier to survive.
You are both wrong, here, the Queen of Pochven and the Admiral of God.
There is no One True Path. Humanity’s strength lies in its capability to diversify.
I wouldn’t call having to live in a survival suit, with two other entities constantly wittering their inane thoughts into mine, never to know again the touch of another human’s flesh on mine, or the peacefulness of being alone with my thoughts, to be any kind of improvement whatsoever.
In light of the rest of your message, I see that I did in fact mistake your point of view. Thank you for clarifying.
No, I was not at all content to remain at my “station.” And of course I had to have the help of someone else-- many “someones,” in fact, over many years. But you cannot possibly be so naïve as to think that getting such support requires no effort, can you? Perhaps from the elevated vantage point of the nobility, acquiring the necessary assistance from other people involves nothing more than dropping your name and willing it to be so. But for those of us who were born to the dust and not content to stay there, securing the right allies, obtaining the right resources, and- proverbially speaking- knifing the right rivals are grueling tasks that consume every waking moment of our lives.
It is no coincidence that my professional path after becoming a capsuleer went into diplomatic service. I have been training for it since birth.
The Triglavians give all contenders equal opportunity to demonstrate their skills. It really is that simple. The problem with the Amarrian way is that the vast majority of those “lowest subjects” never receive an opportunity at all. When you start with the assumption that the lower classes can’t possibly catch up, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can make all sorts of predictions about how human beings will perform when they are truly tested. Funny thing about people, though; they have a startling habit of exceeding expectations when given the chance.
So you imagine, but take it from someone with actual experience as one of those lowly subjects: the upheaval that resulted from conquest, terraforming, and bioadaptation of the worlds of Pochven is no more nor any less devastating than a lifetime spent at the mercy of the mercurial whims of a True Amarrian Holder. And though you no doubt will reflexively reject the notion outright, every baseliner narodnya on worlds in Skarkon, Vale, Senda, and the rest of Pochven have been given a gift, not a curse. They have the opportunity to become transformed into something greater than baseline humanity-- and significantly greater than a capsuleer.
Would that I had been born to the dust of Skarkon rather than the dust of Mishi! What you look on in horror, I look on in envy. On this, too, I suspect we will remain in disagreement.
