Off-Topic Thread vol. 2

[Diana_Kim]

@Valerie_Vynneve

Care to elaborate on that, Commander? As far as public records go, Ms. @Lasairiona_Raske is associated with Itsukome-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries and by extension with Ishukone and the Caldari State.

First of all, considering an entity that is ran by a known for quite time long ago dishonorable woman, who would be detained for multiple slanders if she would be State citizen, to be associated with the State is simply insulting.

Now, about Raske herself. The Angel Cartel is known for representing themselves as respectful businessmen. Though, I doubt there could be earned some respect by associating with someone like Priano, yet, I guess some try to. I myself have learned a great deal about Cartel and operatives since at one time I myself was doing business with them. I guess they didn’t like FIO, and so did we in the State, and some deals were struck, some services provided, some FIO targets went boom. Unfortunately, our “business” was a bit cut short when my contact in the Cartel allowed himself quite indecent behavior and probably was even trying to recruit me - I don’t really know what exactly was it, I am not going to describe it in details, I’ll just say, that it was a final line and no more business was dealt. And most certainly I didn’t want to work for the lousy pirates, especially when they began behaving like a lousy pirates instead of “respectful businessmen”.

So answering on the direct question, where did I learn about Raske, I can say: from Mr. Caine. I maybe could try to investigate into more details, but I think you might even ask her yourself, if you’re not afraid of Cartel. I am not sure if she will admit it openly or not - but it’s worth trying, I guess? Just don’t do it in person, use your NeoCom… just as a precaution, unless you like playing with fire like me.

Another incident I was with Cartel is that another Cartel member DARED to threaten me. You know what I did? I quickly gathered crew, grabbed some guns and went to cleanse some Angel facilities from Caldari State. Many Cartel ships burned that day, even Cartel stations were… ‘disassembled’. I think I have made a statement.

And still after that incident whenever I see a known Cartel agent, I try to “poke them in the eye” just to see them wriggle and see if they actually will decide to do anything against me. Maybe I should just go on another expedition against Cartel?..

As I said, I like playing with fire, and if that will help me eradicate some of pirate scum from our cluster or shed some light on Cartel’s affairs to public - that’s for the better.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Valerie_Vynneve

Care to elaborate on that, Commander? As far as public records go, Ms. @Lasairiona_Raske is associated with Itsukome-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries and by extension with Ishukone and the Caldari State.

This is common knowledge. She has previous membership in the Damnation Angels independent capsuleer corporation and has spoken about her Angel Cartel ties on occasion. That she’s in ARC only proves that ARC has overly tolerant recruitment standards.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Another way of looking at it is that ARC, despite its loose association with the State, is a coalition entity dealing with matters that concern all of New Eden, and with stakes too high to be picky about who gets to help. Working with ARC, I’ve flown alongside militia-involved Matari, nullseccers, Angels, the odd Sabik, and even Sansha’s Nation.

The justification for such cooperation is simple: leaving aside the Triglavians, which at least all of New Eden is now well aware of and struggling with, no one else is monitoring the Drifter Hives. As ARC’s work has become an extended multi-year campaign rather than a short series of exploratory raids, we need every gun we can get.

Better a coalition of everybody than a carefully-vetted, select, elite force of nobody at all.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Aria_Jenneth

The justification for such cooperation is simple: leaving aside the Triglavians, which at least all of New Eden

The problem is that groups like the Nation, the Cartel, and Blooders are in the category of who the rest of us should be cooperating against along with the Triglavs.

[Aria_Jenneth]

Without entirely disagreeing, ma’am, first things first.

[Arsia_Elkin]

You say that like the Triglavs are going away. They’re probably going to be a thorn in our sides for the unforeseeable future. We can’t afford to tolerate those that are just as bad indefinitely.

[Aria_Jenneth]

It’s mostly a matter of priority, ma’am.

Pirate, unaligned, and militia corporations will sometimes join together when there’s a significant prize to be had. I’m sure you remember a certain capital fleet we latched onto. Are you really going to say we did wrong, even if we functionally ended up as tacklers for Goonswarm that time?

Similarly, you, presently, are working alongside confessed heretic Samira Kernher because you happen to be on the same side on a certain issue, to the point of Liking one another’s posts. Yet I’d have no worries about where you’d stand on a battlefield where she was in the opposing force.

Associations for the sake of advancing a shared goal are the norm for our kind. Really, we tend to do it whenever convenient. It can seem unprincipled, but, in the end, it’s often necessary to achieve something both sides want.

And respectfully, ma’am, that goes even for you.

A coalition such as ARC just takes that practice and extends it for a longer time. The principle’s no different: rivals and even enemies joining together to work towards a common cause.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Aria_Jenneth

Are you really going to say we did wrong, even if we functionally ended up as tacklers for Goonswarm that time?

An Admiral in fleet told me that I did indeed make some wrong calls on that night, yes. It was chalked up to fog of war (as he didn’t even realize it in the moment) but was noted as something for me to be mindful of.

@Aria_Jenneth

Similarly, you, presently, are working alongside confessed heretic Samira Kernher because you happen to be on the same side on a certain issue, to the point of Liking one another’s posts.

Individual things Kernher believes may be correct on their own merits independent of her. Acknowleding that isn’t the same as condoning her as a whole.

The fact that you try to invoke Kernher as a conversation ender is wholly disingenuous and I’m a bit disappointed.

@Aria_Jenneth

Associations for the sake of advancing a shared goal are the norm for our kind. Really, we tend to do it whenever convenient. It can seem unprincipled, but, in the end, it’s often necessary to achieve something both sides want.

Working with people who may not be crystal clean and free of sin is one thing, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Arsia_Elkin

An Admiral in fleet told me that I did indeed make some wrong calls on that night, yes. It was chalked up to fog of war (as he didn’t even realize it in the moment) but was noted as something for me to be mindful of.

I see.

@Arsia_Elkin

Individual things Kernher believes may be correct on their own merits independent of her. Acknowleding that isn’t the same as condoning her as a whole.

Exactly, ma’am. Working alongside someone on such-and-such a thing doesn’t mean you condone everything, or even anything, else about them.

@Arsia_Elkin

The fact that you try to invoke Kernher as a conversation ender is wholly disingenuous and I’m a bit disappointed.

That’s of course up to you, ma’am. But, let me just point out: we’re functionally immortals. Capsuleers, especially as individuals, can’t be fully defeated by force alone. Alliances and corporations might be put under enough pressure to break them up, but individual capsuleers are nearly impossible to defeat by force in a lastingly meaningful way. (Consider Mr. Nauplius.)

For us, making a solid point in a debate might be more significant in the long run than blowing up a battleship. A rhetorical alliance, however transient, is therefore arguably more significant than a military one, and you’ve chosen to support Samira Kernher.

This might be seen as troubling-- if you are troubled by alliances of convenience.

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Aria_Jenneth

Exactly, ma’am. Working alongside someone on such-and-such a thing doesn’t mean you condone everything, or even anything, else about them.

There is a big difference in agreeing with an obvious individual idea that an individual espouses on a message forum which they can access regardless of my input and allowing the participation of certain groups or individuals in an activity that they need you for.

When you include Sansha or Angels or Blooders, you normalize and validate them. Even if you yourself keep on guard, the guard of other, less vigilant individuals in the group may lower. That Sansha who seems so nice and flies a Guardian well is honestly far more dangerous than the ones that just shoot at you in belts outright and the acceptance, even on condition or temporarily just moves them towards their goal.

@Aria_Jenneth

(Consider Mr. Nauplius.)

Yes, consider him. Would you fly alongside him?

If no, you also draw a line somewhere, it’s just far too lenient.

If yes, with all due respect, what the ■■■■ is wrong with you?

@Aria_Jenneth

A rhetorical alliance, however transient, is therefore arguably more significant than a military one, and you’ve chosen to support Samira Kernher.

This is just nonsense to try and discredit my position.

[Arrendis]

@Aria_Jenneth

we functionally ended up as tacklers for Goonswarm that time?

I would like to point out that Alizabeth was in your fleet at the beginning of all that, and she’s why we showed up. You didn’t end up as tacklers for Goonswarm, Goonswarm came in as fire support for you.

That may seem like a distinction without difference, but RoE’s a funny thing: you can only control what you’re doing, and what your fleet did was what your fleet had been doing: attacking hostiles. A member of your fleet ended up back in 1DQ1-2, and informed me of the escalation. (Remember, I’d been on-scene in Sifilar.) I told one of our Skirmish Commanders. We checked, and had a wormhole 5 jumps from staging that went to 2 jumps out of target.

Short trip + Snuff capitals = Skirmish Commander giggling like a schoolgirl as he starts screaming for Jackdaws. From there, your options were basically ‘get in the way’ or ‘not get in the way’. Your fleet chose to not get in the way. Good call.

The fact that PIE’s no-longer-Admiralty can’t recognize that distinction and has issues with the idea that someone they don’t like might have the same goals simply demonstrates why PIE has atrophied over the years to the point where, as Aldrith said in Thebeka, they’re lucky if they can put half a dozen people in a fleet.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Arsia_Elkin

When you include Sansha or Angels or Blooders, you normalize and validate them. Even if you yourself keep on guard, the guard of other, less vigilant individuals in the group may lower. That Sansha who seems so nice and flies a Guardian well is honestly far more dangerous than the ones that just shoot at you in belts outright and the acceptance, even on condition or temporarily just moves them towards their goal.

This is probably the strongest aspect of your argument, ma’am.

You’re not wrong. It does normalize them, maybe even validate them to some degree (if only as “not as bad/dangerous as X”). It also might not be avoidable while giving “X” maximum priority.

It’s a judgment call as to what’s most important.

@Arsia_Elkin

Yes, consider him. Would you fly alongside him?

So … I know this is a weird answer from the perspective of almost everybody, but, honestly, for me the answer is, “For what?”

I don’t hate Mr. Nauplius. To save a few tens of thousands of people, I gave him a hug. We’ve also had tea together a couple times.

For good enough reasons, I could also commit slaughter on even a massive scale. In fact, being a capsuleer and a combat pilot, I’ve done exactly that. Hm … maybe not always for the best reasons, even.

Still, for most purposes the answer is no. If it were important enough, though …

So yeah. “For what?”

@Arsia_Elkin

If yes, with all due respect, what the ■■■■ is wrong with you?

As is probably a little obvious, I’m a pragmatist. As a combat pilot, dirtying my hands for various reasons is more or less my job description.

Making sure the reason’s a good one is a large part of why I serve Directrix Daphiti.

@Arsia_Elkin

This is just nonsense to try and discredit my position.

Ah … tempting as it is, I’ll pass on the obvious response.

(And add this only-slightly-more-oblique one instead. But still.)

[Arsia_Elkin]

@Arrendis

I would like to point out that Alizabeth was in your fleet at the beginning of all that, and she’s why we showed up. You didn’t end up as tacklers for Goonswarm, Goonswarm came in as fire support for you .

To a degree, I can accept that.
Even the then-Admiral in question admitted the complexity of the situation.

The point remains that what is going on and who us supporting me is something that I need to pay attention to and it’s easy to get lost when things move fast. Ultimately Goonswarm is orange. I’m allowed to fly with individuals from the organization and sometimes do. They’re an example of a group that’s not-crystal clean but viable to work with at times.

But me knowing via our comms and actively supporting the idea of calling them in is maybe a brash decision that I should have taken more care with.

@Arrendis

PIE has atrophied over the years to the point where, as Aldrith said in Thebeka, they’re lucky if they can put half a dozen people in a fleet.

Not with the PIE ticker, no. But I can field quite a bit more than that. As I said before, some working with less than clean organizations is fine. A line just needs to be drawn and that line needs to exclude certain groups like the Nation, for example. If you support Sansha’s Nation you buy into certain heinous ideas by definition. Goonswarm however has all sorts of different pilots with varying ideas and beliefs. The thing that unifies them isn’t evil. Some of them are, many more are fine. Like most large capsuleer groups. I’m not saying work with nobody.

@Aria_Jenneth

I don’t hate Mr. Nauplius. To save a few tens of thousands of people, I gave him a hug. We’ve also had tea together a couple times.

He’d be more likely to go away were he completely shunned. No matter how much people seen to try, he’s still hurting people. We can’t effectively end him without CONCORD doing so, no. But I think you’re going about it the wrong way.

The fact that he’s not just deactivated is evidence of CONCORD’s ineptitude in capsuleer regulation.

[Aria_Jenneth]

@Arsia_Elkin

He’d be more likely to go away were he completely shunned. No matter how much people seen to try, he’s still hurting people. We can’t effectively end him without CONCORD doing so, no. But I think you’re going about it the wrong way.

You’re not the first to say so, ma’am. But the fact remains that none of the proponents of shunning have ever come up with a workable way to actually do it. You don’t, and can’t, control the overall population of capsuleers, and absent a total block on his ability to reach them he’ll always have an audience.

Your solution might work if its vision were attainable, but it isn’t, so it won’t.

I work with what I have.

[Arsia_Elkin]

But here’s the thing…

Not only have you not stopped him from hurting people… but you don’t help dissuade others from following in his footsteps.

“Who cares if I go on a murder spree? Aria Jenneth will still have tea with me.”

Its’s just like…

“Who cares if I lend support to Sansha’s Nation? ARC will still let me fly with them.”

I’m not going to pretend that I have the answer to stopping a monster like Nauplius, but all I see is people trying to sweep him under the rug.

[Aria_Jenneth]

“Who cares?”

Uh. Plenty of people, starting with you, ma’am? If moral outrage is the order of the day, there’s no shortage of sources for it.

And I don’t see a lot of people adopting Mr. Nauplius as their lodestar.

Also, he pretty persistently refuses to stay under the rug even if somebody might want to sweep him there.

[Arrendis]

@Cain_Aloga

A necessary - and unsanctioned - purge, that may be considered a coup.

If it was so necessary, why were the perpetrators unwilling to stand by their actions in the face of the RJD? Why cover up who did it, why not allow for independent verification of the evidence?

Why be such cowards about it?

[Diana_Kim]

@Arsia_Elkin

“Who cares if I lend support to Sansha’s Nation? ARC will still let me fly with them.”

I’m not going to pretend that I have the answer to stopping a monster like Nauplius, but all I see is people trying to sweep him under the rug.

Yep, he’s a criminal, but I don’t understand bringing him out because of that. In ARC there are people way worse. For example, I’ve myself would fly more likely with Nauplius than Makoto: Nauplius might be a heretic, a cultist, a murderer… but I have way more trust into his words than, for example, words of same Makoto.

Of course it doesn’t mean I would like to fly with him or anything.

They both must answer for their crimes in tribunal.

[Diana_Kim]

@Trii_Seo

Once again, you confuse the facts: you called Gariushi’s address “Hate speech” in a previous post:

Yes. Because if it is speech with hate to someone, it is hate speech. Logical, isn’t it?

@Trii_Seo

I have pointed out that his words do not qualify as hate speech. Because they do not. If you were to start calling for people of Gallente ethnicity to be killed because of their ethnicity - that is hate speech.

No, that’s call for genocide. Just like gallente did with their “Exterminate all Caldari” slogans.

@Trii_Seo

Similarily, calling for violence against homosexuals because of their sexual orientation - that is hate speech as well.

It sounds like a perversion. There shall not be a violence against it - just administrative persecution and public judgement.

@Trii_Seo

This is a very important distinction to make, especially in the case of Gariushi. His words were emotional, yes, but far from hatred - and spoken at a time where it was far too late for a polite discourse while drinking some tea.

Did he ever try? No, he jumped out at Heth like a mad dog, full with hateful words. That’s a hate speech!

@Trii_Seo

In this instance, we see quite clearly, that he chose to place the blame for inefficiencies in the State Government to the Gallente. Because surely it could not have been nepotism, pure damn greed… no, that had to be the fault of an external foe.

Gallente ideals have been undermining State efficiency for quite long time. Tibus Heth was right. While we had the truce, they still were trying to infect us with their influence, we had to put stop to that, once and forever.

@Trii_Seo

Classic, textbook “stoke the pride” nationalism. We are better, the other group is worse.

Aren’t we though? I agree with every his word.

@Trii_Seo

Villifying the enemy ideology again, because his vision of the State is better.

Because their ideology is vile. Shall I describe how?

[Ange_des_Larmes]

@Diana_Kim

Yep, he’s a criminal, but I don’t understand bringing him out because of that.

I think this is the first time I have heard you say that about someone other than Heth, Ms Kim.