Permabumping fix

[Salt_Foambreaker]

So it is too hard, maybe the fix is to making bumping easier?

j/k

[Dracvlad]

@Salt_Foambreaker

So it is too hard, maybe the fix is to making bumping easier?

I wish I could joke about this mechanic but it is a turn off for many players.

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Dracvlad

Counter bumping is not easy, I have no idea why you keep spreading the falsehood that it is easy and that it works.

Out of curiosity, have you tried it? I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m genuienly curious as to your own experience here.

It can be tricky, yes, but if you manage to keep yourself along the vector between the bumper and the freighter you’ll deflect the bumping ship enough to miss the freighter. So it’s not like you’re trying to run down the bumper from a random angle (which I suspect is what you’re thinking of and would be damned near impossible), you’re taking advantage of the fact that you know where they’re going and just get in their way. Ideally in a fast and/or heavy ship.

It’s basic rocket science.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

Also if your webber is also working the amount of time you need to buy for the freighter is small.

[Dracvlad]

@Bronson_Hughes

Out of curiosity, have you tried it? I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m genuienly curious as to your own experience here.

I have, but the thing is because of the risk of being ganked I was in a less than optimal ship fit for it and of course they add more bunpers. I have however seen some people do it and this explanation is pretty good.

@Bronson_Hughes

It can be tricky, yes, but if you manage to keep yourself along the vector between the bumper and the freighter you’ll deflect the bumping ship enough to miss the freighter. So it’s not like you’re trying to run down the bumper from a random angle (which I suspect is what you’re thinking of and would be damned near impossible), you’re taking advantage of the fact that you know where they’re going and just get in their way. Ideally in a fast and/or heavy ship.

However the issue is that one counter bump normally does not do it, I timed the time it takes for a freighter to be able to get to a point of being able to warp after a good bump and it was close to two minutes if my memory is correct, so how many counter bumps do you have to do. Getting a second bump in is difficult, and often they can get a hit in that keeps them from warping after your successful counter bump.

And I think many gankers or ganker aligned players ignore this. Now if you have managed to put him off enough to have a cumulative affect then you might do it, but it is not that easy.

@Salt_Foambreaker

Also if your webber is also working the amount of time you need to buy for the freighter is small.

All a webber does is limit the top speed that the ship can do under its own propulsion., so if you are suggesting that this helps in terms of the bumping then I regret to tell you that webbing once the ship is bumped is worthless.

Of course using a webber to get into warp before they can get on you is key, I found that I had to do it within five sends from the freighter de-cloaking, but a sebo blackbird can counter the webber easily. In any combat situation you have to get to the end point and what are your choices then, which is why I focus on the issue around being bumped and how to counter it at that point.

Because if there is a bumper on the gate, do I risk him bringing in a blackbird, once they started to use them a lot I realised that I could not get to the end point and that is why I think the balance is out if my only choice is to dock and log.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Dracvlad

All a webber does is limit the top speed that the ship can do under its own propulsion., so if you are suggesting that this helps in terms of the bumping then I regret to tell you that webbing once the ship is bumped is worthless.

@Dracvlad

Of course using a webber to get into warp before they can get on you is key,

You answered your own question. Now that someone is protecting you from being bumped a second time webber is once again helpful.

[Dracvlad]

@Salt_Foambreaker

You answered your own question. Now that someone is protecting you from being bumped a second time webber is once again helpful.

My focus is always on your options when you are being bumped. I am sorry but the webber does not help.

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Dracvlad

And I think many gankers or ganker aligned players ignore this.

I hope you’re not assuming that I’m “pro-gank” or somehow aligned with hisec gankers. I’m not. I’m just a realist who has been playing on and off for over a decade and dislike it when players expect EvE to adapt to them.

If anything, if you really want to reduce hisec freighter ganking, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Getting CCP to crack down on fleets of gank bots (which, unlike bumping, is actually forbidden by the EULA/ToU) would likely save far more freighters than changing bumping mechanics without any of the unintended consequences.

[Dracvlad]

@Bronson_Hughes

I hope you’re not assuming that I’m “pro-gank” or somehow aligned with hisec gankers. I’m not. I’m just a realist who has been playing on and off for over a decade and dislike it when players expect EvE to adapt to them.

No I did not assume that as I am aware of your posting history.

And you are making the assumption that I want Eve to adapt to me, what I have done is look in detail at this mechanic at the individual solo level up to the conflict between groups and after going through it over a long period of time including opposing it and testing it I have come to the conclusion that it is unbalanced and needs to be changed.

@Bronson_Hughes

If anything, if you really want to reduce hisec freighter ganking, you’re barking up the wrong tree. Getting CCP to crack down on fleets of gank bots (which, unlike bumping, is actually forbidden by the EULA/ToU) would likely save far more freighters than changing bumping mechanics without any of the unintended consequences.

I am not doing this to reduce freighter ganking, I am going after bumping because I do not think it is correct game balance. Again you miss the point, the content will be so much better without bumping. So as you resent being referred to as pro-ganker I resent being told that I want to stop ganking, I don’t.

By the way I am not accusing you of that, but saying that I want to reduce freighter ganking is not what I want even if for a while it will reduce due to the change to bumping, but people will then start moving more stuff again and then people will do team multi player ganking fleets for fun and share the loot and stuff and the counter play will be more cat and mouse and I will be happy.

Gankers have already proved that they do not need to bump freighters to do it, but it makes it so easy that of course they don’t want to let go of it.

People can multi-box and and as long as they do not use input broadcasting that is fine in terms of the EULA.

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Dracvlad

My focus is always on your options when you are being bumped. I am sorry but the webber does not help.

But now that you have your bumper bumping the bumper you are no longer being bumped, you are aligning and warping.

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Dracvlad

People can multi-box and and as long as they do not use input broadcasting that is fine in terms of the EULA.

That’s why I specifically called out “bots”. If you can multi-box a gank fleet on your own and think that’s enjoyable, more power to you, but that’s not my style. (In my heyday I could manage three clients, but only two of them remotely simultaneously.)

As for the rest, I wasn’t trying to accuse you of anything, and I was only asking if you were doing the same to me. No harm intended, I’m just a firm believer in clarity.

[BIade_Runner]

This thread is meant to debate a module who reduce the mass of the freighter to allow him to warp even while is under intense bumping from 2-3 Machariels, IS NOT a thread made to debate everything else except the fix i suggested, like counter-bumping, suicide ganking, etc.

Tackling a freighter by bumping for unlimited time is already acknowledged as an issue and CCP tried to come with a 3 minutes warp timer fix, so please try to be constructive and help devs to come with a solution who don’t break more than it fixes. Thank you!

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@BIade_Runner

This thread is meant to debate a module who reduce the mass of the freighter to allow him to warp even while is under intense bumping from 2-3 Machariels, IS NOT a thread made to debate everything else except the fix i suggested, like counter-bumping, suicide ganking, etc.

Too bad for you you do not get to make the rules.

Any time you make a suggestion it has to stand some basic questions and one is: Is there already a way to deal with this and in this case the answer is yes, there is.

The fact that you don’t like the answer doesn’t count.

Also 1 v 2-3, the 2-3 wins, welcome to EVE.

[Kaylee_Rayl]

@Dracvlad

Out of curiosity, have you tried it? I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m genuienly curious as to your own experience here.

I have, but the thing is because of the risk of being ganked I was in a less than optimal ship fit for it and of course they add more bunpers. I have however seen some people do it and this explanation is pretty good.

Would you care to say which ship you had use to counter bump?

@Dracvlad

Getting a second bump in is difficult, and often they can get a hit in that keeps them from warping after your successful counter bump.

I’m no ganker, but I’m more aligned to those who Pvp. Also why I had proposed to use Escort Services initially, whereby you use 2-3 counter bumpers vs 1 ganker-bumper (and pro-rata if you have more opponents). So I ask, were you alone to counter gankers or were you in a fleet/team?

@Dracvlad

And I think many gankers or ganker aligned players ignore this. Now if you have managed to put him off enough to have a cumulative affect then you might do it, but it is not that easy.

I am very well aware of it - not easy yes, but feasible. I mean, if the gankers managed to pull a stunt as to require ‘miner permit’ (which was is quite innovative thinking) for hsec players, then why not other groups (alike haulers) manage to outgrow their situation?

@Dracvlad

Of course using a webber to get into warp before they can get on you is key, I found that I had to do it within five sends from the freighter de-cloaking, but a sebo blackbird can counter the webber easily. In any combat situation you have to get to the end point and what are your choices then, which is why I focus on the issue around being bumped and how to counter it at that point.

Well with the new ecm nerf, you can primary the blackbird now. An escort service, with dedicated dps, ewar, L5 web skills, and ships with web bonus (stopping power vs distance), ganking support, would have effectively minimized freighter losses. Don’t just give up and say that ‘bumping’ is unfair because of x,y,z - it’s only unfair to those who give up before even trying hard. And Eve online is not about easy-win. Now go and reorganize an escort fleet, fail, try and keep trying until you’re successful.

[Kaylee_Rayl]

@BIade_Runner

This thread is meant to debate a module who reduce the mass of the freighter to allow him to warp even while is under intense bumping from 2-3 Machariels, IS NOT a thread made to debate everything else except the fix i suggested, like counter-bumping, suicide ganking, etc.

Really? I had initially counter proposed your module attributes, with example. I don’t recall you commenting on my view by then? But I did notice that you ‘quietly’ changed your OP’s values w/o notifying the crowd.

[Kaylee_Rayl]

Here’s a fix:

Try the Escort Service (player owned). Invent it and make it work. In 15 months or so, if you’re still failing at Eve online, we’ll see what can be done by then.

[Dracvlad]

@Kaylee_Rayl

Would you care to say which ship you had use to counter bump?

Machariel, fit for tank and fit more for bumping, a Cyclone a Navy Omen and a fleet Stabber. However you have to be very aware of being ganked by the gankers as they will do it, because ethey are setup to gank while theor prey is not.

@Kaylee_Rayl

I’m no ganker, but I’m more aligned to those who Pvp. Also why I had proposed to use Escort Services initially, whereby you use 2-3 counter bumpers vs 1 ganker-bumper (and pro-rata if you have more opponents). So I ask, were you alone to counter gankers or were you in a fleet/team?

Of course more people counter bumping will have an effect, but the gankers have brought in more bumpers, I saw four once so that will give you an idea, though it was around someone with a massive cargo in terms of ISK. I have been on my own and with another person.

@Kaylee_Rayl

I am very well aware of it - not easy yes, but feasible. I mean, if the gankers managed to pull a stunt as to require ‘miner permit’ (which was is quite innovative thinking) for hsec players, then why not other groups (alike haulers) manage to outgrow their situation?

You are mixing apples and pears, anyone opposing them is not getting an income, they get an income from this. This makes it always more difficult.

@Kaylee_Rayl

Well with the new ecm nerf, you can primary the blackbird now.

The damage is already done, it is not there for ECM, it is there to locak the freighter get a point on it and last long enough for the Macheriel to get on it, nothing to do with ECM.

@Kaylee_Rayl

An escort service, with dedicated dps, ewar, L5 web skills, and ships with web bonus (stopping power vs distance),

Think about the duel system and trust then think this through a bit more.

@Kaylee_Rayl

Don’t just give up and say that ‘bumping’ is unfair because of x,y,z

Seriously…, bumping is a poor mechanic that gives too many advantages, of course I am not going to play when it is so much in their favour. I may like a challenge, but I am not keen to do it when the odds are so stacked against me.

@Kaylee_Rayl

it’s only unfair to those who give up before even trying hard

You have no idea.

@Kaylee_Rayl

And Eve online is not about easy-win

Which is my point about bumping, it is the definition of easy win.

@Kaylee_Rayl

Now go and reorganize an escort fleet, fail, try and keep trying until you’re successful.

You go and try do this and then tell me what you find. There are so many things tah you have not thought through. Anyway I am off to watch some TV, but you really need to think more about income or the lack of it, that the players doing AG are normally young newer players with limited SP and that they do not have much resources only and you are dealing with people that do not trust anyone. Most times freighters do not even reply to my convos when trying to help them.

You just think ah its easy, no it is not.

@Kaylee_Rayl

Here’s a fix:

Try the Escort Service (player owned). Invent it and make it work. In 15 months or so, if you’re still failing at Eve online, we’ll see what can be done by then.

Try yourself and see how far you get. I am fairly well known as a AG aligned player, and only about 20% of people I try to contact even reply to me…,

[Salt_Foambreaker]

@Dracvlad

Of course more people counter bumping will have an effect, but the gankers have brought in more bumpers, I saw four once so that will give you an idea, though it was around someone with a massive cargo in terms of ISK. I have been on my own and with another person.

Then you need more friends.

There is no magic item that allows 1 v Many. 1 vs Many means you loose, as intended. Also

2v3, 2v4, 2v5…

3v5, 3v6, 3v7…

Maybe those other CUSTOMERS have less rights because the are nasty gankers?

[Kaylee_Rayl]

@Dracvlad

You go and try do this and then tell me what you find. There are so many things tah you have not thought through. Anyway I am off to watch some TV, but you really need to think more about income or the lack of it, that the players doing AG are normally young newer players with limited SP and that they do not have much resources only and you are dealing with people that do not trust anyone. Most times freighters do not even reply to my convos when trying to help them.

You just think ah its easy, no it is not.

I have been at some point in time an AG member, and who’ve contributed in alot of new venues. I know how it works, and so far, there’s alot that still can be done. But you and your team have to be willing to upgrade to a better state of mind. Anyhow gl.

[Bronson_Hughes]

@Dracvlad

Try yourself and see how far you get. I am fairly well known as a AG aligned player, and only about 20% of people I try to contact even reply to me…,

Related note: I wrote up a forum post years ago (one that I really wish I had kept a link for) talking about the underlying problem with most anti-ganking fleets.

The short, inelegant version is this: don’t bring DPS, don’t bring ewar, bring logistics. CONCORD already packs the most powerful DPS and ewar available in the game, so the best you can do is to have reps constantly landing on the target before the gankers start shooting at it to soften the blow. I tried organizing a few fleets like this myself, and the general reply I got was, “But…mah killmails!”

This is part of why I’m generally unsympathetic to folks clamoring about hisec ganking. There already ways to help alleviate the issue, but they don’t involve shiny killmails so too many players can’t be bothered.

(This post isn’t directed at you in specific, but your comment reminded me of this and I wanted to share since it seemed relevant to the topic.)