Player built stargates?

I don’t know why people like to assert this without any evidence as if it were gospel. It seems equally likely to me that the reason there is an apparent over-population of highsec is that the risk vs. reward balance there is too attractive and it keep/draws players to that sector of space.

There is plenty of evidence that when risk vs. reward is properly balanced, players are willing to live in or visit more risky space. Things like PI and some other industry, or exploration routinely entice players to leave highsec. But why bother leaving when you can make as much and have CONCORD watch your back?

I will agree there are a small amount of Eve players (nowhere near 75% though) that are hyper risk-averse and they too should have some content, and I think there is even a larger cohort of “group-averse” players who are comfortable with risk, but for whatever reason prefer to play mostly solo or in small groups and that is most easily done in highsec. Whatever mechanics they implement for the new space better be accessible in some way to smaller groups and solo players moreso than 100% safe if they want it to be used by more that the large nullsec groups.

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Also there’s plenty of evidence that risk is a constant and no amount of reward will pull people outside of their comfort zone.

CCP’s attemtps to drive people out of high and into null have worked historically by driving people out of EVE Online. Right now null haves the biggest rewards for everything, even game-breaking rewards, and yet server PCU keeps going down and I’d bet that highsec keeps leading the loss of older players. Risk is the same but reward is poor compared to the exaggerated bonuses of nullsec. And when people grow bored of getting poorer rewards for their risk, they move to other games.

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this. I cant tell you how many people are promised how they will be safe in null in such and such alliance, I have a corp of guys I know right now trying to fight off a group of pvpers that’s a small gang and their alliance isn’t helping at all. My alphas null alliance a neut comes and people just dock yet we can get people for other pvp ops.

What evidence?

Indeed. In fact since CCP really ramped up the showering of wealth upon nullsec in the last few years, activity has gone up significantly there at the expense of highsec. Highsec activity is down even more, true, but there has definitely been some movement of player activity out of highsec to nullsec.

Whether or not there will eventually be serious, even catastrophic economic consequences to pay for this change in wealth distribution is something that concerns me, but all the evidence says the gambit has worked at least somewhat to move players to, and increase activity in, nullsec.

the evidence that says you can be shot anywhere as long as your undocked

That defines that risk is present, not that it’s constant.

Not every activity is balanced via risk vs. reward. It’s not that simple as give the best rewards to the null and whole ecosystem will adapt. If suddenly all rewards from hisec will be transeferd into lowsec do you think players will move to lowsec? This is completely different gameplay and not necessary fun for everybody.
There are players in EvE that don’t want to create sov empires for examples. Devs wanted players to be in null becasue they think it is fun this way. In sandbox game, player dictate what is fun for him. Sure we have an option to build space empire but not everybody want to do that apparently.

Yes they would. If you made lowsec mining 10x more lucrative than highsec mining, many people would move. Some would also quit, while others would stay in highsec.

I’m not saying that should be done or that there shouldn’t be some low risk/low reward ways to play Eve for the risk averse, but I don’t see why players claim that increasing rewards outside of highsec won’t get at least some players to chase them looking for more reward by accepting some additional risk. Not all will follow, but there are many examples where it has worked.

This new space really needs something more though to be as successful an addition to the game as wormholes were. I think CCP has some interesting ideas - I just hope they aren’t too late in getting them implemented.

CCP Dragon made better rewards in lowsec for one of the events. 6% activity spike but how much more would leave the game? It doesn’t work, people like seems to not understand that, there is no carrot big enough to drove people from hisec nor it should be.

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I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to, but if it was this post:

you are seriously misinterpreting his numbers. Putting the choice rewards in lowsec for that event doubled the number of sites (as a percent of total) run by the players in lowsec, not just increased it by 6%.

It is proof of exactly what I am saying: players will follow the rewards. I am not saying event sites (or anything else) should be removed from highsec or anything silly like that, but carrots like those used in the last Crimson Harvest will influence player behaviour.

Restoring a proper risk vs. reward balance would do wonders for this game. I am befuddled by players who think their personal aversion to accepting any risk is representative of all the other players. It’s fine if you don’t want to ever leave highsec, but I don’t see how it is fair that you get the same rewards as those that are willing to.

Its like those people in Jita that write in chat “Honest ISK doubling service, send me 1 ISK and I will double it” :wink:

Ok apparently im not the only one unable to stay on subject. XD

but we still don’t know if the sites were run by players from lowsec or other spaces. I assumed players were driven from other spaces, but it’s hard to tell.

Risk vs Reward. This will never be true. Nullsec has best rewards, but is it risky? I didn’t write I don’t want to leave hisec and I don’t think hisec has comparable rewards to other spaces. It’s just not that simple as you think. 3 types of security spaces are not comparable. Lowsec is not better hisec, nullsec is not better lowsec. Content is different, risk is different, gameplay is different. It’s not line progression. Why bother with lowsec when I have better rewards in mostly empty nullsec? Risk vs Reward? not so much.
I presume we will have 4th type of k-space with player build gates - jove.
It['s either remove the difference between security status spaces - so line progression of every activity or remove the security status space, leave few systems for empires, even rewards to the same level and watch the rats fighting over it.

Risk-aversion is not the only factor that, for example, keeps some players out of Null. Off the top of my head, there’s also:

-“Group-aversion” - players (such as myself) who are not interested in being tied to a herd, who don’t want to have to play at times compatible with those of other players, and stick mindlessly to the very letter of some doctrine, and who don’t want to spend available time waiting for others to become available. However, the sovereign-null (and other “high-risk” areas essentially controlled by power blocs) is closed to players who will not join, or at the very least manage some very tedious negotiations, with the sov-holders - and that’s again time and effort that has to be spent on more unwelcome/unwanted interaction. Conversely, sov-holders don’t generally want to grant safe passage to unknowns, and that’s totally understandable - to trust blindly would be to invite exposure in some form or another, be it direct aggression, or espionage, or infiltration. Furthermore, they worked for, fought for, secured and developed their turf - YTF should they allow others to simply come in and pick the fruits of their labours?

-“Commitment-aversion” - which is in many ways related to the previous one. Again, it keeps those who are not interested in becoming an ant in a hive-mind from visiting space owned by sov-holders or even merely controlled by power groups. Again, it’s either be a member, or stay TF out. Now some players don’t have a problem with being attached to a large group (corp/alliance/whatever) but simply can’t (or won’t) commit to coordinated timing - you know, things such as class timetables, work duty-shifts, military service billet postings, parental responsibilities, household/medical emergencies, social or cultural (IRL) events etc (you get the idea) have a way of getting in the way.

So claiming that “improving the reward-to-risk ratio will drive players to null” is at best a simplistic and reductive view, and at worst downright fallacious. Furthermore, even the above paragraphs (which put such a dent in the whole risk-vs-reward argument) are partially irrelevant - ultimately, the game’s reward structure should be governed not by some arbitrary abstract scaling of risk vs reward, but by what actually works and is good for the game. And what’s good for the game, bottom line, is player retention (over and above player acquisition, too - but that’s another story for another, more bitter, day. :smiley: ) If biasing the rewards in favour of “higher risk-taking” ends up driving a few players into “more dangerous, more fun” territories but also drives EVEN ONLY A FEW players out of the game, then it is FAILING! and should be rethought. Of course, CCP definitely seem to have an inability to EVEr acknowledge when they’ve made a mistake and to backpedal a change (perhaps they think it would make them look weak or stupid? I submit that NOT redressing mistakes is what gives the impression of at least one of those…)

Trying to “balance” risk against reward in the simplistic way CCP have done is a fool’s errand that will never work, and all it promotes is a sense of inequality and injustice. Should the riskier-to-acquire rewards be higher? I think definitely yes, in order to make them attractive to some fence-sitters, and simply to offset the additional costs involved. But should they be THAT MUCH greater? Hell no! The aforementioned sense of injustice inevitably makes some players bitter and disillusioned, and they eventually stop playing (I’m not saying all those who stop playing do so for this reason [I have no idea how many or how few] - just saying this before some idiot comes along false-syllogistically assuming that that was what I meant and arguing against it.) The reason is that perceived injustice and unattainable goals are among the most effective ways to tick off and drive away people.

{EDIT: double typocide, and elaboration]

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You act like they want people to join.

The risk v reward balance is a PVE aspect and if you want to know if there is greater risk for the reward in PVE in null v low v high, go run a 3/10 DED site in highsec and then a 10/10 in nullsec.

It’s pretty straight forward to see the difference in the risk. Same for belt rats in null compared to the same thing in low and highsec. Same for running combat anomolies.

There is some PVE, such as incursions, where the risk is relatively the same but the rewards are improved in low and null to encourage people to run the sites, so it doesn’t strictly fall in the normal risk v reward pattern of game balance (though the Sansha rats on gates, etc. in low and null are certainly more of a PITA than they are in highsec). However, the increased risk in highsec for that type of PVE, also brings increased reward.

On the whole, yeah, PVE in nullsec presents a greater threat than similar PVE in highsec (and lowsec falling in the middle somewhere), so the balance is pretty correct.

and? nullsec intel channels make them pretty safe, now try DEDs in lowsec. There is no straight risk vs reward progression because lowsec is most dangerous space yet not most rewarded.

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Player built stargates will probably be like nothing expected.
Very little to go off of, from that 2014 presentation.

More likely to be similar to other games (and some elements of EVE), that all players contribute x tokens/materials to an NPC entity, which then builds the stargate.
So though the stargate is technically “built” by players that contribute, its not owned by players.

Dunno where they will manifest.
Since they put so much stress on “all capsuleers” being able to get involved, its difficult to deduce.

That stargate then leads to a pocket system/constellation whatever, outside of k-space, with whatever mechanics. Probably some kind of system that attempts to encourage co-operation for PvE, with a dash of PvP alongside.

My guess would be a “battleground” type system, not dissimilar to Faction Warfare.
Something like the separate arena for world PvP in ESO, where you either fight over nodes, or PvE the peripheral content there.

Except you are confusing 2 issues.

Reward is balanced around the risk that the PVE poses, not what other players pose.

However if you want to claim that nullsec is lower risk, it’s because the players and groups in null actually manage the risk. Even blind freddy can see that the mechanics are the most liberal in nullsec and wormhole space. The players in those spaces just do a better job of minimising the risk and the same approach they use is available to anyone else, but most people just want to whinge that risk is too low, not acknowledging that player in null are just better at managing the risks present.

However, in all the years, no one has actually accepted the following challenge, maybe you’ll be the first:

Get in a Freighter (or any industrial really) and autopilot through highsec. Then set a course into nullsec and autopilot.

I’m sure you’ll be happy to autopilot an industrial through null.