Im failing to decipher what you mean by this. I may be decent at EVE online, Dota 2, Starcraft 2, etc, but I dont go into a new game and refer to myself as an “Experienced combat PVPer” in the context of that video game, because im a new player.
If anything, I think the word you are looking for is “experienced gamer” or “hardcore gamer”.
In this topic? Because I couldnt find any.
In every situation? Sure. No one is talking about every. Single. Situation. And its disingenuous to talk about it as if we are.
Information is readily available for many aspects of eve, but we still have people come to the New Player Q&A forums to ask about these things. The fact that its available, doesnt mean that people will actually look for it, and when they do, it doesnt mean that they will read or understand what they are reading.
Its like being told how bad World War 2 was, and then actually experience being in the trenches for months on end, watching friends die, being shot at, experiencing the cold, the pain, the hunger, the fear, etc. You cant possibly experience that by reading it, and its a different experience when you actually experience it. People will read about EVE online, and think it sounds cool and great, but find out it isnt. They realize that they didnt know how difficult it was to lose everything you carry in a single shot.
Reading, even being well informed about how bad something was, and experiencing are two different things.
Neither can be true and the bittervet narrative could also still be true.
The above statement will cover the “poorly informed” part, but ill address the “hardly any online experience” part here.
Each game is different, and you cant compare a game with another. Someone who could be playing World of Warcraft for 8 years, and who we would consider as a lot of online experience, could try EVE and realize how hard it is. They might not like the concept of losing all your stuff in one go, while being used to simply resurrecting and reviving and not losing any loot in WoW.
Imagine if a patch came out in WoW, where all your equipped items, every single item you got from hours and hours of raiding, was destroyed once you were killed. There would be a huge outcry. A lot of people would quit.
And then, imagine if they turned every single server into PVP, anywhere, against anyone.
Imagine the chaos. How many players would be left?
Eve is a niche game. Always is, always has been. If youre not comfortable with its premise, you wont stay long, because its a core part of the game. PVP, permanent loss, is all part of the game.
Interesting post, but a lot of it is outside my current EVE-forum interests.
If I remember correctly (90% confident) , the first post you responded to was constructed because someone was trying to “sell” the “bittervet message” about new players: i.e. that EVE “captures” all the new players who would ever stay, and hence loses none who might stay.
The post probably seemed little strange, but it was crafted to deal with a specific requirement: a player was trying to sell that extremely unlikely story. The discussion got a little “pear-shaped” though - I think the first of my posts you responded to was my third, perhaps fourth, in the sequence and was needed to address some “eccentric logic” that had slipped into the exchange.
That’s the background to
“Not weird - defense against equivocation”
My focusing mainly on new player retention
Your anecdotes are interesting, but they’re not evidence that EVE never loses a new player that would stay if the game was a little different.
Judging by my personal experience, EVE loses a large proportion of potential long-term players over things that could be readily changed/improved without interfering with the rest of thre game (e.g. highSec ganking of more experienced players, the nullSec status quo, etc. I’d expect that the retention rate could be at least doubled (note though - the baseline is very low).
And repeating (for the third time I think - usually I give up at two):
Almost all new players know about permanent equipment loss
Almost all new players know it’s a "free-fire PvP game
Almost all new players know that griefing, theft, piracy, blackmail etc are game-legal.
It takes minimal effort to discover those things: It’s all in the wikipedia article.
Claiming the contrary is clearly a case of “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.
You’re implying, like all the others, that people try EVE without checking anything at all.
That’s an extraordinary claim.
BTW - I’ve never seen as much new player whining as the bittervets pretend. What I have seen, year after year, is people responding exactly as you’d expect to these exceptionally toxic forums.
The “bittervet narrative” is a self-serving fantasy. All of it.
For crying out loud people this tactic has been in game from the beginning. And you have not used modules that can help avoid bumping or used strategies that can help avoid bumping? Really?
How dare you! I want you to know that EVE players with refinement and taste use Amazon Prime Video. That way we can watch Prime videos and also access our video library.
I started off as “hey spaceships, cool”, which by itself is irrelevant; it becomes relevant when you ask how many other new players start off in the same way.
The research came after I got canflipped in a Rifter, foolishly engaged the cruiser and then promptly exploded, closely followed by a rage quit on my second trail account.
In some respects I’m an oddity, Eve being my 1st MMO, I had very few preconceptions of what to expect from how other MMO’s do things.