Use me as the dislike button.
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Hey Elise, been a while.
I think a bit too drastic. 90mins is too long of a gap for groups to find worth. The isk/person is now less than level 4 missions even if you grind them all sequentially. There is no reason to fight over these instead it will be reserved for the ultra-committed or lucky fleet that passes through.
I would suggest doing either 15min respawns, or reduction in payout, or a combination. Alternatively, note that there is no intermediate… you go from 25mil for small sites, 300mil for wormhole sites, then 3.5bil for OBF… possibly add an intermediate site? like 1.5bil? with 10 sites?
These changes killed pochven’s reason for being pochven. It is not worth the effort in comparison to lowsec activity or even null ratting.
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i wonder if ccp has every heard the the old saying. if its not broke dont fix it. its confusing to me why ccp likes to ruin content for its players?
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This respawn rate timer has 100% killed Pochven. Most if not all groups are evacuating. Our group was in Pochven for the pvp first, ISK secondary. That was ours groups core goal, pvp. We now have 0 targets. Our ~300 member Alliance now has 0 content, and we will have to find something else to do. Hope we survive this. I hope even more that this change is reverted.
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Really bad change. Even if the goal is to reduce the amount of isk generated by Pochven, this is one of the worst ways to implement it. 90 minutes is an eternity, every fleet will just stand down at that point.
Furthermore, having the site respawn 90 minutes later means there’s less opportunity for conflict, as no one knows where to form for the potential contest of the site.
The core reason Pochven generated so much isk is that you could run the sites with cheap ishtars semi-afk with drones. Add drone aggro to the site and the feasibility of farming these sites without a lot of investment and risk changes dramatically.
The only “good” thing about this change is at least Horde can’t run it with ishtars profitably anymore, so I can shoot them elsewhere I guess? The region is dead with this change though.
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If it was affecting the MER negatively, change the isk payout…
Or do something cool to allow for an increased spawn window…
Start spawning Edencom sites 1-2j from the system the OF will spawn in, the fleets out must complete X sites to get the OF to spawn, then finally run the OF. Something like that builds upon the Invasion mentality, along with a driver for PVP. More ships out, more opportunity for ships to be lost. The ISK equivalency could even be that of what a single site was paying, thus giving the same amount of effect on the final MER.
Edit: You have sunsetted content from Invasion, like the sites that spawned in Minor Victory systems… if budget for putting in new content is a constraint, then use something like that as a template for the precursor OF sites. Having spawns within a few jumps allows for multiple fleets to start vying for dominance over the OF. Once the OF spawns, the fleets are in close enough proximity to actually brawl and decide the victor, thus claiming the OF.
There’s better ways to implement a change like this… simply editing site spawn rates across the board isn’t the way to do it. Make it FUN content… not ship spinning content!
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Good one… eve isnt supposed to be fun !!
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Okay, then nerf Ishtar’s drone control range bonus. That’ll work too. It already outranges every other HAC in EVE now.
TBH it’s not really about ISK-making opportunities for me… it’s about keeping a region alive. The lack of content in the region is what is bugging me… and having most groups evac after a change like this will suck the life out of the Triangle. It’d be great to have some direction as to what CCP wants to see for the region as a whole.
Although I don’t care about the ISK, most pilots will want to spend their time where there are ISK-making opportunities available. Without the allure of OF’s and the PVP possibilities there-in, there really isn’t much left to do in Pochven. If you want PVP, then there needs to be some reason to be out in space to PVP, otherwise you’re just ship spinning waiting for that one site to run & not being out in space. CCP has previously said that ship spinning instead of being out in space should be an indicator that something needs to change. So why make this kind of pro-ship-spinning change??
The breakdown:
ISK Values per site
T1 Combat Sites - 7m/pilot
Overmind Nursery - 25m Salvage
OF’s - 237m/pilot
World Ark - ~2b loot
As a fleet…
T1 Combat Sites aren’t even worth running…
Overmind Nursery is OK, but it’s just a data site, no real point in contesting as a fleet…
OF’s are great for organizing 15+ pilots and roaming, but with the respawn that changes, doesn’t allow for continuous activity and pilots will go do something else.
World Ark is ProEdencom content and can only be run by alts (unless pilot wants to tank their Trig standing) and spawns few and far between compared to all other sites in Pochven.
Mining - can always organize mining fleets or go hunting for mining fleets, but is that going to be the only fleet activity in Pochven between spawns? Go hunting for miners that will dock up when they see something on DScan? Ugh…
As I’ve mentioned earlier, there are better ways to go about a change like this that specifically affects the content in an entire area of the game.
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Pochven as you said is a vibrant ecosystem. “Capital Free” Brawling as Bob intended. It has the very best small gang PVP in the game. Sites are built for 15 and most engagements stay close to this number. There is (should be) a very expensive barrier to entry for most. It’s supposed to be high end content for your community that’s played this game for 20 years. Players are actively fighting over the only thing to fight over in eve. Isk and shiny shiny ship kills. This is a catastrophic and lazy nerf. Let’s be very clear, there are a multitude of ways to improve this faucet without this ridiculous nerf. Let’s talk about it though. Why is this a bad idea?
First the Problem. OBS are the only game in pochven, it is the only reliable content generator for the entire region. The ore is pretty good, but there is no ice. Miners don’t fight back. Miners aren’t willing to stick around and trade. There are other sites in pochven but they are completely invisible because they are broken. These sites have the same problem the rest of eve has, they aren’t worth the effort to do them. No shiny ships, laughably low return on investment (time and isk).
Why is this nerf a problem?
- It’s super lazy. The groups in pochven have been asking for subtle changes to the region since creation. We have asked for more variation in sites. This means there should be sites in pochven worth running for 1 pilot. 5 pilots. 15 pilots. For the Love of Zorya’s sacred exhaust port… Can we fight something that isn’t Amarr every single time? Why are these sites so forgiving to kiting mechanics? Why do these sites ignore drones? Where are the conflict generators bringing edencom into the region? Where are the missions? It should be difficult to fly cheap in pochven. It’s supposed to be Space Hell. More Rabid rats that scramble and murder you are worth the risk for the isk. Why are we instituting a lazy mobile game mechanic into eve that suppresses engagement?
- It is going to destroy content. Pochven is one of the very few super vibrant, super active communities in eve. People are crammed into a small region killing each other over sites and ships worth the effort of killing. If the sites aren’t frequent and worth running, there will be no ships in space. If there are no ships in space there won’t be any brawls. If there are no multibillion isk brawls, the region will die. There is a universal truth in eve. Do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. People do not fly ships worth killing if the sites aren’t worth running.
- Pochven has the only community in eve online where the Krabs are willing to fight (Except for the ishtars). We should be making these sites more challenging not making them inaccessible because of a ridiculous timer. This is what pvp is supposed to be, the PVE content is the prize that grinds that gear.
- Pochven is one of the only area’s in eve that supports casual gameplay (time investment) and has engaging PVP and PVE content. People are able to get in and get out without spending hours and hours in tidi. People are able to hunt in a target rich environment. There is almost always someone close, ready to fight back in a meaningful way, in ships worth killing.
Honestly, there is so much more, but I don’t know that I care anymore. I used to be a miner until they killed that. I used to anom rat and go on roams with the alliance, but that was murdered in multiple ways. Now I fly in pochven and they are killing that. It’s getting to the point that I just have other things to do. This is getting exhausting.
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^^This
Espcially #1… variation in content would be amazing, with varying difficulties of PVE activities. Invasion had this type of content: The minor site, the major site, the OF site… but that content has been left to the wayside, not found in the game anymore. CCP: We’re asking for varied content so we can play the game and enjoy our time in it, not twiddle our thumbs sitting in a station waiting for a time-boxed piece of content to spawn.
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Hi Swift,
Interesting change, I see a lot of frustration in the community. Some of it with merit, some of it is pretty funny. Personally I am not that opposed to respawn delay in some form, or changes. Although I am more curious what the outcome measure of ‘destruction’ or ‘generation’ you’re looking to achieve, e.g.: metric or key result threshold in MER?
Iterate and Measure
I’ll speak briefly about iteration first though, as I think this could be done better:
Iteration isn’t 0 >> 90. Iteration is 0>>15. You make a small change and measure impact.
Making a large change distorts outcomes. Ideal is you calibrate as few values as possible to measure outcomes. The large adjustment being made in context of the environment is the anti-thesis of ‘calibrate and monitor’, more akin to ‘nuke and hope the ecosystem survives’. Because recalibration later could be an attempt to revive a dead patient post mortem. Not quite what you’re after, I hope.
Objectives and Measurement
If it’s “less isk generated, stable destruction”, then engaging with people who are destruction focused on Pochven is a good idea to farm ideas. If you have a goal, and are determined to change something, let’s engage and see what options help you move in that direction.
I’ve been thinking about Ishtars for a while, so wanted to strawman an idea for you of a different direction you could take instead. Idea here is to show many tactics could deliver an objective.
Objective: Increase destruction and decrease generation.
- Tactic: Specifically target Ishtar high-generation low-destruction ship meta. Force pilots into heavier doctrines.
** Option 1: Substantially increase optimal/falloff of EDENCOM Battleship NPCs, and increase their warp threshold (to at least opt/fall ceiling).
** Option 2: Another is to increase the dread optimal/falloff. - Rationale: The Ishtar fleets that run mostly rely on the mechanic of the relentlessly warping NPCs to survive (so they take minimal damage while kiting the dread at ~150-200km). If you calibrated those values, they wouldn’t be able to speed-tank or distance-tank the sites and cheese the dread with assigned drones from range. They’d die trying to maintain range on NPCs.
- Outcome: Ishtars would fall out of the meta quickly. Heavier/brawler and easier to catch doctrines would emerge in meta. Destruction and fights go up, while generation would likely fall.
^ the above considered could be wrong if it wasn’t aligned to your objectives/key results. Like if CCP were trying to target RMT activity, or bring ISK generation down in general. So context on objective & measures are key to useful feedback.
Site Spawn Times
From my POV, I think a small change of 0>>10 or 0>>15 is actually quite good. Since there’s more time to travel to respawned sites, it would increase competition, while still keeping plenty of sites in the triangle during a play session for a regular dude. (Think <2hr or <3hr).
The reality for 0>>90 as many have articulated is already evident. Among groups I either run directly or nurture in bringing into Poch (none of them are ishtar-users), they are all abandoning upcoming fleets or plans, because the potential for isk-gen for limited play time (1.5hr - 2.5hr fleet max duration) is not worth leaving their existing activities (e.g.: WHs). Fewer people in the triangle = fewer fights = dead region.
If there aren’t krabs running, I won’t form my fleets to hunt and kill them. So I’m pretty invested in seeing some kind of vibrant activity as I’m not actually interested in the isk-gen of the sites personally, just the crowd it attracts that I can hunt. The ecosystem is symbiotic and the changes are pretty destructive to the balance.
Brushing it off with “We’ll iterate later” is what led to Muninns sitting as dominant meta for 5 years. It feels dishonest because iteration has been rarely a fast follow in the past, so my patience to wait many months when we maintain monthly subscriptions could be nuclear to activity. I don’t want to see change come too late to matter.
I’ll leave you with a quote from EVE-Discord. Feel free to PM me though mate. Happy to talk more anytime.
Jordie: can you even iterate from a point of flattening an environment
Proxay: No, that’s the point. It’s anti-thesis of iterate>>measure.
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Look at all these entitled mega crabs crying over their save and unassailable wealth generator getting a 90 minute cooldown… The audacity of these people. 
There are other things to do in Poochven than just OBS. Run those sites and hunt NPCs down on celestials. If Poochven dies because 1 SINGLE activity has an insignificant cooldown, then Poochven should just disappear altogether as it never added anything of value to the game and only caused unneeded reduction in activity in other areas of space that need that activity more.
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“Unassailable”? Dude, new groups are getting into Pochven all the time. Or were, until this change. Even before this change, it was already entirely possible to not make ANY ISK in a night, but it was okay because at least we still got fights out of it, and we’re there for the fights as much as for the ISK.
You really mean to tell me that you think the correct way to solve the problem that all of the content being generated by a single site is to nuke the respawn rate of that site into the ground so that now there is nothing to generate a significant amount of content in the region? Not say to increase the diversity of sites, increase difficulty, decrease payouts? You really think that just obliterating content generation completely is the right way to go?
You say Pochven caused an unneeded reduction in activity in other regions in the game? By that logic does that mean Pure Blind also causing an unneeded reduction in pvp activity in other regions because it’s the current hotspot in nullsec? Should we find some way to nerf the Pure Blind region so people stop fighting there and start fighting in other regions more?
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No endless making of billions of easy isk perhaps?
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That’s a dumb logic because PB is not closed off from any interference from anyone and it does not prevent anyone from doing anything in any other region. That is a stark contrast to Poochven because this region is closed off from the rest of the cluster, it has special restrictions on interactions unlike any other area of space. It’s a closed off, near-instanced, sandbox-hostile area of space that caters to the gullible and afraid who cannot get things done in open space. PB is not like that, nor is any other area of space outside Poochven.
Not to mention that the entire logic behind the argument “unlimited sites generate more content” is flawed. If the sites become rarer, the motivation to monopolize the fewer sites becomes stronger. The fewer OFPs there are, the more content they will create because that kind of scarcity creates actual strive and friction, that breads conflict. This is a whole different kind of scarcity than the resources scarcity crap.
But but, less sites, more competition … wouldn‘t it result in more fights over the rare sites, and the winner gets the “bonus”?
Be honest, people don’t go to Pochven for PvP, they go for turbo krabbing in relative safety. If PvP happens one side made a mistake, probably missing to bring enough bubbles, or not locking down the gates.
Before the gates and ISK faucet was opened, Pochven had a thriving community only asking for a bit of love to unbreak things and fix the LP store. It’s like a locust invasion what happened then…
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It’s called flavour if the MONTH for a reason, if you keep chasing that you keep getting rug pulled.
Why not be an adult and accept that this is what happens to OP things and enjoy it while it lasted, or simply not invest into it knowing that at some point soon™ it’s going to be changed?
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Can’t say I’m in favor of this change. I anticipate some dramatic decrease in the destruction in Pochven; as the long timers heavily favor the multiboxers over the 15 player fleets. I can’t personally imagine CCP coming up with a positive iteration, but a shorter timer - possibly with more of requirement for the fleet to be in space in the “first room” might encourage more conflict between OF fleets. That said, when can we expect iteration on any other content in Pochven? You are AWARE there are only two things worth doing; and the mining is arguable as it is less safe than anything short of mining other people’s null moons? I regret purchasing my sub, and I can’t see myself spooling up more characters to live in a space if this is your idea of “fixing” it. Hope that FW update works out, or, failing that, this game finally dies so some less foolish game designer can take a crack at the genre.
That sounds pretty sad.
I don’t know anything about the Obs.Flashpoints, but just from reading this topic I cannot understand how such a lazy design has ever passed the quality check? I mean, rule #1 in any system is “if it can be abused, it will be abused. beyond imagination.”, so why the heck can’t they come up with clever NPC spawn compositions and site mechanics that effectively prevent endless kiting and afk-/multibox-droneboats? It really isn’t that hard and they have PAID game designers for that topic. What the hell?
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