Pochven Must Burn!

Then let’s drop the whole “you’re a manic murderer” narrative, shall we? Your concern isn’t with how scarlet I painted my floors, but the manner in which it was done? Which is, to say, quite gracefully and appropriately. No degradation, no suffering, only a swift, clean end.

Of course, I was merely stating that she condemned them to death. At the moment she entered warp that day inbound to the structure, there was only one fate awaiting her crew.

The Wirashoda Azbel, of course. Was that an attempt at trading barbs? I am sure you can think of something better than that.

Ah, Ms. Malitia.

I have stated clearly to you the purpose of our attacks in Pochven: to ablate your materiel, your morale, and eventually your infrastructure. This is a war. Its goal from our perspective is to weaken you and by extension your masters.

Fleet command saw an opportunity to hit your infrastructure in a way that you would feel, and avoid having to lay siege to that particular structure in the future. Since subsequent sieges would involve at least two likely-contested timers, there would be more large battles there. The charge may have been suicidal, but it was efficient (and actually a surprising number of us got out after)-- resources, and lives, spent achieving a goal that would otherwise have likely taken far more.

And it appears from the aftermath that that single move was more destructive to you and yours than we could likely have accomplished in a month of sieges.

Call me a lunatic if you like. Call us ruthless-- we’re surely that, one and all. But we did what needed doing. What needed to fall, fell, and I do take pleasure, even pride, in work well done.

I’ve said before that I don’t think you people understand the Triglavian Collective very well, and this display of yours really strikes at the crux of it. The Triglavians approach power like a fish approaches water. They are not cruel. They are not deceptive. They don’t display bitterness. They care deeply about their own codes and principles but are only concerned with others’ opinions insofar as those opinions may be congruent, or not, with their own. They accept loss without complaint.

Everything about them bleeds patient, tempered strength. It’s awe-inspiring. It’s terrifying.

You, on the other hand?

Our FC’s made the call. Our pilots followed it willingly. We’re responsible; fine. We accepted that. I think that, probably without exception, we’re a little proud of it actually.

The most we can say about the people you executed is that they tried to stay alive, as crew always does. And the fact that you people would kill them to try to get to Mr. Adams says you don’t believe for a second your own stupid tripe about our supposed bloodlust.

On the contrary: you expect us to have concern for our own, for those under our command. That’s the only reason to kill them.

But you’re fools if you think a display like this will even slow us down. (Strategic considerations might, but this won’t.)

You’ve given us no reason not to hurt you, Remilia Malitia. No reason at all. And we came to Pochven to do exactly that.

What you’ve done, is show us how well we’ve succeeded.

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Oh, Ms. Jenneth, please tell me that this too is just an attempt at being deliberately provocative, because that is just an embarrassing degree of delusion otherwise. Do you really, truly believe you are doing something of substance in Pochven? That you are achieving a meaningful objective on the bodies of all the fallen? I am sure that holding such a belief gives you peace of mind as it does to all who willfully put on the blinders of idealism to support their monstrous actions.
This is war? This war was concluded months ago, you are a tiny band of independent terrorists, pirates and apostates lashing out in impotent rage against the only thing you can, ignorant of its true consequences. Material was ablated on all sides and is already replaced, our knowledge of how to effectively field it only improved. Our morale is higher than it has ever been and the crippled infrastructure became more trouble than it was worth for us the moment the gates were opened. I am sure to an outside observer, this seemed like you delivered some meaningful strike that sent us collectively reeling into a self-destructive mania, but this abandonment of upwell infrastructure has been the subject of much internal discourse between Kybernaut organizations since before this little conflict was even sparked.
I understand that your view of war is tied to much more conventional mechanics employed in battlefields and contested zones all across New Eden, a constant struggle for the elimination of enemy infrastructure and the defense of your own, but truth of the matter is, the domain of Pochven is a chaotic, mutable thing at the moment, still being woven and evolved. Perhaps it will be once you have triumphantly demolished the last vacated Kybernaut citadel when you realize that for all your bloodshed and self-righteous indignation, you have achieved nothing.

Welcome to Pochven, Ms. Jenneth, enjoy your stay! Behold its sublime scarlet skies that will only grow more vibrant, the view of 220 planets drifting underneath liminal starlight, host to the proving of so many, come visit our beautiful “home” systems and marvel at the megastructures crowning each Krai.

We hope you enjoy the view, we will certainly be enjoying it alongside you.

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Considering the sudden uptick in whining from Kybers and decision to blow up your own structures because you can’t defend them from ‘independent terrorists’? Yeah, it’s pretty obvious they are.

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With regards to my work, I will always answer my people’s call if I am able to help. With regards to cluster-wide diplomacy, this is the territory of the Chief Executive Panel and it is not my place to comment on it.

How? When the CONCORD Signatories declared a joint war on Sansha’s Nation for it’s barbaric practices, this wasn’t a circumvention. How is this situation any different? The Triglavians have taken systems and people from all CONCORD Signatories, and trying to liberate those systems and it’s inhabitants together is the correct thing to do.

Yes. Therefore, if the Triglavians do not wish to fight, they can pack their bags and go elsewhere.

I didn’t say that you should only refuse objectionable orders from a hostile foreign power. I said all orders that can not be traced back to your Mega or the CEP. Or was there something in the wartime press releases that wasn’t clear?
image

The Gallente stance was to resort to orbital bombardment until we capitulated. It became genocide because they did not understand that no amount of bombardment was going to result in capitulation, because the survival of our culture is more important than the survival of the individual. The Triglavians exist in a similar state of misunderstanding, or they would never have set foot in our systems. That is the only similarity between these conflicts.

There was an alternative. Opening a diplomatic channel, explaining the situation and asking for unimportant systems that met the criteria. They chose violence and they will reap what they sow.

Caldari doctrines served EDI excellently. It therefore follows that internal sabotage and treachery is the only logical explanation.

I am unable to understand why someone would willingly break from their ancestors’ culture, but in principle I agree with what you say.

As entertaining as it is to hear Feds accuse others of hubris, I would remind you that resorting to comedy in this thread is disrespectful towards the dead.

Either someone is loyal to their people or they are not. There is no such thing as different tiers of treason. Do not allow traitors to compromise you through conversation.

What?

Traitor capsuleers fighting for extra-dimensional invaders have no jurisdiction in Caldari space, which is what Wirashoda is. This has not a shred of justification and not a scrap of legality. I am certain that the whole militia will join me in condemning totally, this unprovoked aggression by the Triglavian Collective against State territory. Those sixteen systems and their planets remain State territory. No aggression and no invasion can alter that simple fact. It must be the objective of all loyal capsuleers to see that those systems are freed from occupation, and are returned to State administration at the earliest possible moment.

The Triglavian collective invaded sovereign territory of the Caldari State. The Chief Executive Panel agreed unanimously to not only support a joint defence plan, but to mobilise the entire citizenry of the State for wartime service. I can understand the fact that you were absent from the frontlines because you were already deployed to Black Rise. I can not, however, understand why you would question a directive issued by the highest governing body of the State.

You do not consider being shot in the head on your knees in front of a camera to be a degrading death? A less degrading death would have been to simply destroy the escape pods on the grid to give them a death that is equally swift but devoid of ceremonial nonsense.

This is an extremely disrespectful thing to say considering the nature of the video recording.

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It wasn’t, actually; or at least, not in the concrete form implied here. You were explicitly clear when we started discussing possible ideas for terms on June 7 YC123 that “these are brainstorming, not actual offers.” You presented a list of four items that you acknowledged were very much preliminary: “some of these ideas might be too little and some will no doubt be outrageous for you.” (Emphasis in original.)

You presented a list of four ideas (really five but you enumerated them as four.) I responded by focusing on two of the 4 brainstorming ideas and adding some additional details for further discussion.

We were still negotiating them as tentative ideas right up until the final battle for the Azbel began. The first draft offer of terms was not put on the table until 06:13 Eve time on June 10, when you sent me the written terms for discussion and further refinement. This was hours after the Azbel was destroyed; your message requested returning the bodies of the fallen any any prisoners captured after your coalition withdrew from the combat zone.

Diplo Failure 2

It was a mutual sentiment. Both of us expressed an interest in making sure the terms were done right rather than rushed. Me out of concern for accuracy, and you out of concern for the number of allies with whom you needed to coordinate. When you say that you “specifically inquired . . . if they want to rush a deal through before the final timer of the Azbel,” I assume you must be talking about your message to me on June 9: “Also, to make it clear, I have to first run this by Debes, then I have to run it by the allies, and ugh. I expect you’d want it done by the hull timer.”

The phrase “ugh. I expect you’d want it done by the hull timer” was the entirety of the offer to try to hash out a deal in advance. I regret that you did not communicate your willingness to pull an overnighter to get the deal done at the time we were discussing the original set of ideas. The only message I took away from our discussions was your concern about the cumbersomeness of getting all of your coalition partners together to discuss the ideas we were batting around. Accordingly, I did not have great hope for a resolution before the final battle-- especially if doing so might result in an flawed document. Because we both had reservations about the wisdom of trying to turn the preliminary ideas into a formal offer in the short time before the battle, we both equally declined.

When the Azbel was destroyed, the Paramount Executive of Stribog Clade (to whom I answer and loyally serve) ruled that no further attempts at negotiation would take place. To cite a historical precedent of truly archaic origin, the battle for the Azbel was the moment that the conflict crossed the Rubicon and peace was no longer an option. Whatever acts of terrorism we might have been willing to overlook in the interests of supporting a peaceful resolution likewise became impossible.

The ultimate outcome was not the fault of the diplomats on either side. In fact, I commend Ms. Rhiannon for doing her level best during the entire process. She faithfully represented her coalition’s interests and negotiated in good faith. I did the same.

I do not regret making the effort to explore whether a peaceful resolution to the conflict might be possible. I am both Supreme Fleet Commander and Director of Diplomacy within Stribog Clade. I thus wield the power of the pen as well as the power of the sword; and I value each of them equally for their respective strengths. Quite contrary to some of the more. . . unhinged opinions expressed on this forum, kybernauts are not bloodthirsty monsters singularly focused on destruction at the expense of all other options.

Sincerely,

Sahara Jackal
Director of Diplomacy
Supreme Fleet Commander
Stribog Clade

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I dunno, you guys did when you left Caldari Prime. I mean, there are still Caldari there, living traditional lifestyles that predate the megacorporate culture. So clearly you guys were the ones who adopted a new culture.

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Their sole purpose has been to circumvent the legal immunity afforded to capsuleers by CONCORD in order to engage us as an entity existing outside of that legal framework? Don’t give me that drivel about this being a joint effort, the only universal EDENCOM-aligned presence across all territories have been volunteer capsuleers, most of which abandoned the State entirely. No-one was fighting the Triglavians but the local navy forces, the sole sign of co-operation has been joint fleets between allied powers alone (never mixing) deployed way after the invasions were over. What exactly has EDENCOM done, as an organization? Please tell me. Commissioned a line of ineffective, experimental ships from Upwell that it never deployed? Developed crude defense platforms using Matari weaponry that it refused to even deploy outside of the Amarr Empire (which Valkanir has pledged loyalty to alone)? EDENCOM is nothing but a parasite, Ms. Tereven, a leech drawing exorbitant amounts of funding to waste on novel projects, all while the national navies suffer the losses under their incompetent command. So excuse me if I refuse to acknowledge them as anything worthwhile. I will acknowledge the efforts and sacrifices of all of the big 4, but to attribute anything but treason to EDENCOM is laughable. As a matter of fact:

I agree with you whole heartedly. How is it that as demonstrably competent our Navy is, even after the invasions as seen in Black Rise, the moment they come under EDENCOM command they become so tactically inept and inflexible? All while our most honorable allies in the Empire handled each invasion more than competently while also receiving the full focus of EDENCOM support?
I would not wish to accuse the Amarr Empire of conspiring against us, of course, but EDENCOM has an observable bias.

Obeying reasonable orders issued by Stribog is in service to my ultimate goal. The execution of Federal brutes was extremely reasonable and a service to the State.

The sole time they have received direct communications from us, ARC corrupted an entire fleet by using Sansha technology, intentionally or not. I understand their hesitation in contacting us, though if EDENCOM’s insistence to hide everything they are able about the collective, including quarantining Vale, the sole highly populated system to seek out a peaceful resolution with the Collective, even against the latter wishes of the senate speaks for itself. Even during first contact, CONCORD did everything in its power to conceal all there is to know about that lone, damaged Vedmak and now their own Disparu fleets scour Bujan, opening fire on anything they see.
I would urge you to reconsider the benevolence of such organizations and the truthfulness of their claims.

I agree entirely, however their conviction came about after their capture and trial. At that point, of course, this method could no longer be pursued.

The Proving Loops are not Bujan, I find it worth reminding. Capsuleers as yet, have not lain eyes on what is constituted by Bujan, and I doubt CONCORD’s Disparu troop has either.

That is incorrect. Our position on Caldari Prime was untenable from a military perspective. Since we did not wish for our way of life to be tainted by Gallente influence, we evacuated and continued the war from elsewhere. We had no reason to assume that the Federation would actually learn from it’s errors and leave the remaining Caldari on Caldari Prime alone. Time has shown that they actually did, and I acknowledge that.

It is entirely reasonable to assume that there are subtle cultural differences between Caldari who life in the Federation, Caldari who live on Caldari Prime and Caldari who live in the State, the same way that there are subtle differences between Caldari from each mega, and subtle differences between Deteis and Civire. As long as these differences do not become agregiously large, they can be overlooked, but the battle against cultural drift must be a continuous one.

The difference between Caldari who live in the State and Caldari who live in the Federation, however, is that the Caldari of the State make the continuation of our people’s way of life their personal responsibility. We inherit our way of life from our ancestors, we contribute as much as we can to the prosperity of our people, and then we pass on that responsibility to the next generation. The fact that the Caldari who pledge allegiance to the Federation, Guristas or Triglavians not only fail to contribute anything to the Caldari people as a whole, and in many cases actively work against it’s best interests, is why they can not and will not be taken seriously.

Perhaps there were better ways to handle the situation, such as simply hitting the targets with the full force of the navy and doomsdaying any traitors who got in the way, but that does not change that what transpired was a unanimous decision made by the CEP during wartime circumstances and it is not our place to criticise that.

Even if you had the right to question the decisions of the CEP, which you do not, you stand to gain much from division between the CONCORD signatories, thus your words can’t be trusted.

Obeying any form of orders issued by any entity hostile to the Caldari State is treason.

Are you really trying to argue me with what my goals are against something different you disagree with, like mine goals are actually yours and you’re trying to teach me to do my job AGAIN?

This is a highly unprofessional behavior, Ms. Tereven. Learn your place and think twice before addressing me, or I might consider that your attempt to initiate conflict with State officer is rather delibirate and that your person shall be investigated for possible connections with enemies of the State.

As to summarize my point of view to you and to prevent you further humiliating yourself in public media:

  1. I consider ‘Pochven’ systems are Caldari systems that are illegally occupied by hostile entity.
  2. I do look for restoring State authority in so-called ‘Pochven’ systems as soon as possible.
  3. I have made this intent clear in the past MULTIPLE times already.
  4. I do like when one enemy of the State kills other enemy of the State.
  5. Gallente Federation is way greater menace to Caldari State than Triglavian Collective.
  6. I honor Ms. Malitia for exterminating NADSC scum in an efficient and professional way.

Any further attempt at misinterpreting my words, goals or intents (instead of asking me for clarification) I will consider as hostile (likely pro-gallentean) propaganda and will look forward for detaining you for thorough questioning.

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Like, for example, that the traditionalist Caldari settlements of Caldari Prime aren’t all beholden to a megacorporate oligarchy. That, you know, fundamental difference in societal structure seems like a really big cultural difference, and it’s safe to say theirs is older.

That means yours… changed.

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Yes, this is true, and it is also true that when you said it’s better to do well than fast I did agree with that. However, that was your response to “I expect you want this to go through before the timer”. We also explicitly confirmed that this means there’s no cease-fire. We amicably agreed on that, as you say.

I was, then, somewhat surprised when it turned out that actually, “done well” was no longer an option.

That said:

This is entirely Stribog’s call and I don’t grudge you making it.

I only answered the question of whether there were ever alternatives for the suicide charge by pointing out that yes, diplomats had been talking.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Head Diplomat
Electus Matari

PS. Sorry about the multiple edits. Trying to keep this short and on point, in order to not hijack the whole thread.

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There very clearly were better ways to handle the situation, and I can name multiple off the top of my head, yet EDENCOM commanders pursued no other options whatsoever.

Why?

I believe you answered this a while ago, “Internal sabotage and treachery.” Our Navy is clearly not the failure point, the sole, isolated area where they underperformed so much was when under EDENCOM’s command.

Use your head, the traitors and saboteurs are obvious.

Again, I would never imply that this is on the Amarr. They have been our allies against the Gallente menace for ages. I place the blame squarely on EDENCOM and Valkanir. I am not telling you to believe anything I say, I am just asking you to take a look for yourself. Take a look at the objective facts of what transpired and reach your own conclusion.

You would have a point if those orders were intended to hurt the State, but this one only hurt its enemies. It was a valid order to follow.

Would it make you feel better if you thought of my perception of those orders as ‘suggestions’ instead?

So, the loss of multiple capital, and even some supercapital wings by the Caldari Navy, quite catastrophically at that, was at EDENCOM’s command? If I remember correctly, with the exception of some Dreadnought flights, most Capitals and Supercapitals remained the purview of the primary navies.

Of course it is. All naval forces in systems under invasion were transferred under EDENCOM’s command as far as I know. That is kind of its stated purpose, you know? As stated above, EDENCOM assumes incompetent command while the regional navy suffers all the losses. The performance of naval forces speaks for itself.

Edencom fleets were specifically seconded forces, and not a full governance shift of command. The Navies still did bear the brunt of losses, but not quite in the way you’re thinking.

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Right, and can you back that up in any way? Never have I encountered naval forces under invaded systems not identified as EDENCOM forces, with the sole exception of small rapid response groups that hunted down intruding enemy capsuleers in high-security space.

I know it supports your Fed-sympathizing narrative that the State’s Navy inexplicably became collectively incompetent during those few months, and only in battles where EDENCOM held command, but you will have to spin your lies somewhere else. Have some respect.

Can you point to any other sustained, mid-scale fleet campaigns of the same kind where the Caldari Navy (not capsuleer militia forces) demonstrated better performance?

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