POCO and Init attacks

[Zaera_Keena]

Very good @Dracvlad. You are not just a pretty face it seems.

[Githany_Red]

Can you not think of a way with in the game as it is now , I can and I think Bee was getting close with his next attack .

[Iceacid_Frostpacker]

Like if empty of fuel or strom the tower begins Remove It Anchor

[Syzygium]

If they would do that, you would see a ragequit-wave you cannot imagine.

[Arya_Yeshe]

@Syzygium

The only solution that would work long-time is to make POCOs fuel-dependent like every other corp-owned-profit-generating structure that is anchored in space. They must be refueled every some weeks, just very little amounts, so no big costs apply, but the effort of refueling them again and again could only be undertaken long-term by a local group that actually lives there with active members. Anyone trying to create some “holding corp” with many hundred or a thousand POCOs that are protected by some huge fleet that can travel anywhere if one comes under attack would despair over the insane amount of fuel-runs they had to do every day.

What man! I think I’m falling in love!

CSM Syz / CCP Syz now!

How about the pocos being allowed to be refuelled only by the poco corp/alliance?
Imagine that in a war

[Syzygium]

Don’t dream. It would give more power, control, freedom, money and responsibility to all the smaller corps of that alliance. Those who would have to own the POCOs to do the refueling and would collect the taxes in return. Nobody of the alliance leadership wants that. Right now all of the POCOs can be owned and taxed by a single “holding-corp” that is controlled by just a handful of “leaders” (or even only one guy and his alts). This one can make all the rules and collects all the money. Why would they ever want that to change?

[Arya_Yeshe]

It’s not up to him to decide, it’s up to CCP

[Solonius_Rex]

@Syzygium

Even if one would raze all the POCOs, it doesn’t matter at all. The moment they leave, the POCO empire is re-installed within a week.

Where theres a will, theres a way.

And a sh*t ton of money too.

[Dracvlad]

Requiring fuel is a really good idea, and I have seen quite a few other suggestions that you have made over the years that are pretty spot on.

As long as you do not propose removing or delaying local than you should be good

[Dyver_Phycad]

Fuel for pocos is such a great idea. Most pocos in the cluster run at a loss, and require years to make back the money needed to put them up in the first place. That’s surely going to create a lot of meaningful content. With that system, you will have boatloads of planets without pocos and no one willing to put one up because it’s prohibitively expensive to buy it and maintain it. That brings even more people into the existing poco empires because they can afford the high maintenance cost, which in essence leads to even more concentration of wealth and power.

Superb idea.

[New_Order_Enforcer]

@Dyver_Phycad

you will have boatloads of planets without pocos

thats great, better than one on every moon

[Syzygium]

@Dyver_Phycad

Most pocos in the cluster run at a loss, and require years to make back the money needed to put them up in the first place.

Thats the problem. They are put there by people who don’t even use the planets. All they want is to farm taxes from the work of others. Even denying those who actually want to use the planets to put own POCOs there by threat of force. Any semi-active corp living in an area has back their investment in less than a month. ProTip: Thats why you see POCOs in every WH, usually from those who live there.

@Dyver_Phycad

That’s surely going to create a lot of meaningful content. With that system, you will have boatloads of planets without pocos and no one willing to put one up because it’s prohibitively expensive to buy it and maintain it. That brings even more people into the existing poco empires because they can afford the high maintenance cost, which in essence leads to even more concentration of wealth and power.

Ehh no. Thats completely made up.

[Mephiztopheleze]

Hisec pocos must be profitable, otherwise why fight over them?

Many moons ago I was in RVB back when we lived in Josameto/Liekuri.

We owned every poco within four or five jumps of Jita.

ISK flowed into the alliance wallet like a firehose. Enough that we were running our own “lp” store.

Twas grand!

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Syzygium

Even denying those who actually want to use the planets to put own POCOs there by threat of force.

What prevents you from countering their threat of force with your own application of force? Oh, wait, you can’t because you are not strong enough.

@Syzygium

Any semi-active corp living in an area has back their investment in less than a month. ProTip: Thats why you see POCOs in every WH, usually from those who live there.

You compare apples and oranges. Pocos in W-space are used exclusively by the people living in that hole and only accessible to them. They are not accessible to others and not supposed to be. They are private property.
Pocos in hs (and to a lesser extent in ls) are not meant to be exclusive, private property, but open facilities to be used by a wide range of people and groups. That’s why a wide range of groups hold pocos in all systems in HS and LS, and other people can use the cheapest or most conveniently located or most relevant pocos they desire. Not to mention that you can just kill them if they belong to groups that are inactive. Or you can get in touch with a group and ask for special standings in return for continuous income.

Your fuel suggestion creates nothing but frustration, annoyance and tedium, of which we clearly don’t have enough of in EVE as it is.

@Syzygium

Ehh no. Thats completely made up.

Sure, that’s why Omega And Friends exists. Totally made up.

@Mephiztopheleze

Hisec pocos must be profitable, otherwise why fight over them?

A select few of them are. Mostly 1 to 2 jump around the big hubs because the planets there can be used as factory planets. But go further away from Hubs or into backwater regions and your revenue drops off sharply. I own a few pocos myself in the general vicinity of an economically active area and it took me 5 years to recover the cost for 4 of them.

[Githany_Red]

@Mephiztopheleze

Hisec pocos must be profitable, otherwise why fight over them?

Not necessarily profitable, it could be a way to control pi prices from high sec . If the whole idea of the POCO is to stop high sec being profitable why other places make the isk

[Dyver_Phycad]

This war over the pocos is going well for INIT, by the way. I just checked Muvolailen, where INIT killed the OAFML Pocos on the 23 Sept and their holding corp’s pocos were killed 6 days later by FRT. Same story in all other systems where INIT liberated the cluster off of OAFML pocos.

[Syzygium]

@Dyver_Phycad

What prevents you from countering their threat of force with your own application of force? Oh, wait, you can’t because you are not strong enough.

Don’t play stupid. The POCO cartel is called a cartel because all who could oppose are either part of it or keep out of it’s business because the others would band together and bash them. Highsec POCOs are nothing but a big money transfer from new players to already super-rich vet-blobs, protected by the insanely stupid Wardec system. That is not healthy for the game and most people understand that.

@Dyver_Phycad

You compare apples and oranges. Pocos in W-space are used exclusively by the people living in that hole and only accessible to them. They are not accessible to others and not supposed to be. They are private property.

I am not, I am doing simple math. They are extremely profitable even while not open to the public. POCOs in HS are much more profitable, because you even GET taxes from others. If they weren’t, the cartel wouldn’t even exist and BF wouldn’t agressively put down everyone daring to wardec O&F to remove a handful of POCOs in some forgotten backwater system.

@Dyver_Phycad

That’s why a wide range of groups hold pocos in all systems in HS

Yeah? The last 100+ POCOs I checked were all from O&F. Strange. Where exactly is this “whide range of groups” in Highsec? Lowsec is a completely different issue, because the blobfleet protecting the POCOs isn’t protected themselves by CONCORD from outside interference. Thats why we don’t have a huge problem there, the range of influence of the combat-ready groups is limited and by trying to protect too many assets in space they would make themselves easily baitable.

@Dyver_Phycad

I own a few pocos myself in the general vicinity of an economically active area and it took me 5 years to recover the cost for 4 of them.

That doesn’t speak for your skills in economics. As said, you can get your money back just from not paying taxes pretty easily if you use the planets. And every ISK you get from someone else is basically free. It’s pretty much unimaginable to need years to get your money back with a POCO, unless it is in some completely uninteresing island system where nobody lives and you are not doing your own PI anyway.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Syzygium

The POCO cartel is called a cartel because all who could oppose are either part of it or keep out of it’s business because the others would band together and bash them.

Customs Office | Omega And Friends Medialabs | Killmail

Don’t play stupid. OAFML lost pocos on a regular basis to small groups.

@Syzygium

Highsec POCOs are nothing but a big money transfer from new players to already super-rich vet-blobs, protected by the insanely stupid Wardec system.

That is only true for the actually lucrative pocos around hubs. Venture further away and you see a myriad of different corps and alliances who hold pocos.

@Syzygium

POCOs in HS are much more profitable, because you even GET taxes from others.

You compare apples and oranges. The high sec pocos are only “much more profitable” in a handful of places. That is why your dreaded cartels only own them around these profitable places.

@Syzygium

Where exactly is this “whide range of groups” in Highsec?

Everywhere else further away than 3 jumps from Jita, Amarr, Dodi or HekRens. Where I have my pocos, there are 5 other corps that own pocos in the systems. All small groups (lots of them dead, though).

@Syzygium

It’s pretty much unimaginable to need years to get your money back with a POCO

Lots of things are “unimaginable” for your very narrow point of view. That doesn’t mean these aspects aren’t realities.

[Syzygium]

@Dyver_Phycad

Don’t play stupid. OAFML lost pocos on a regular basis to small groups.

With “on a regular basis” you mean:
“Not a single one back to February 2022” (3 were shot by Frat)?

I mean, they lost not a single HighSec POCO before this INIT attack in… like 20 months. If you can’t see an issue here, we are not in the same boat.

@Dyver_Phycad

You compare apples and oranges. The high sec pocos are only “much more profitable” in a handful of places. That is why your dreaded cartels only own them around these profitable places.

Thats not the point entirely. It is not about the places where they own them or that they own all of them (they don’t, I am going to believe you with this). The point is that the current POCO mechanics allows a contiouus income after an initial investment without any need for maintainance. No need to “restart” (like extractors), “fuel” (like stations), “runs” (like PvE), “jobs” like Industry/Research. This should change. If you want to make ISK with POCOs, maintain them actively, at least once a month. Alternative: treat them like large floating depots in space - anyone can attack them without CONCORD interfering, they just get suspect.

[Dyver_Phycad]

@Syzygium

I mean, they lost not a single HighSec POCO before this INIT attack in… like 20 months. If you can’t see an issue here, we are not in the same boat.

No, I do not see the issue. Because most of their pocos in more remote places (read: 3+ jumps from hubs) were already killed by other parties long ago. Naturally they don’t show up in recent times. The pocos around hubs are/were under their control because they actually played the game, got their protection and player cooperation scheme setup right and used player interaction to hold onto the most profitable pocos. Just like it’s supposed to be in EVE. Shocking, I know, but player cooperation and politics work as intended. You don’t like that? Then overpower that scheme. If you think that player interaction to hold onto power is a problem, EVE may not be the right game for you.

@Syzygium

mechanics allows a contiouus income after an initial investment without any need for maintainance.

And that is a good thing because these activities are ridiculously tedious, they burn you out and offer not a single positive experience in return. There is nothing positive at all when it comes to fueling structures, POS or pocos. Nothing.

If you don’t want to understand that this ridiculous amount of tedium is actually harmful to the game and gameplay experience, we are not in the same boat. We are not even in the same ocean or on the same planet.

@Syzygium

Alternative: treat them like large floating depots in space - anyone can attack them without CONCORD interfering, they just get suspect.

Why? Why should you not have to declare war against a group to attack the pocos? Besides: What is this even going to change? You still have timers which the holders use to gather their forces. Your suggestion makes virtually nothing better and everything worse. Actually, the war dec timer gives smaller groups an additional day to find help. So, without that timer they have even less opportunity to defend their assets than with the war. Great job, you harmed small groups even more with your suggestion.