Policy Update - Real Life Threats & Harassment

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(lilsteel) #835

I’m charged with real life threats and harassment type charges and they also try to interfere against me leaving my country for that.
Either way, I want nothing to do with them, not now or ever.

They use that to harass me and threaten me, and to try to justify the attacks against me since , they think in error, they can do as a sort of self-defense, even though the actions they deem illegal are not what they are making it to be, so to avail them and to make them be as they want.

Unfortunately, it would be illegal for me to associate with them at this point.

I’m sure I can quote you quite a few systems patents which are designed at exactly doing what you say it does never.
In fact, I also have to move to go register patents due to those same system which you say they don’t.
It’s also to prevent life endangering to public , including threats and threats level.
While to deny someone the ability to do good to society might seem as a viable solution to some, to keep them into discredit, it can hardly be good for society , and it’s in fact those who cause it to be that way who create the problem.
In fact, the party denied ability to benefit society should prove the case to use it against the party causing damage, even if he is wrongfully accused of causing damage when he is not.

It’s being good to society while the other option is evil and treacherous. I don’t suggest to keep one’s family in those systems, it’s not raising them up in virtue, but rather into vice.

Needless to say, I do design systems against that, and rightfully so.
It happens everyday, 24/7.
They never take holidays, and they are even targeting holidays since they can inflict more damage at critical time , policing it.

Being a publisher, CCP obeys publishing rules, and when they get problems take action.
You may or may not agree, it won’t change the fact.
It takes more understanding to figure it out.
It takes more practice to correct it.
Ignorance can kill you and it most probably will.


(Sandy Law) #836

Falcon You are selective with your punishments and always cover for your friends. Aside from the fact that you leak inside information about the decisions you have made concerning other users.


(Beachura) #837

I apologise but you’re talking absolute rubbish.

Bump, Scam, Steal and Suicide ‘Gank’ all they like within the rules, but this rule in particular is what is being broken:

End User Licence Agreement Link

  1. You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: filing support tickets with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or support tickets
  1. You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.

That behaviour is what’s bannable, if they’re not mad that you blew them up, don’t send them lots of mail trying to make them mad, because it’s abuse and you know it is.

In wormholes we ‘gank’ people every last second of the day, I understand it’s going to happen to me in high sec and it’s extremely common-place.

But I don’t send a thousand mails to the poor guy we’ve just ‘ganked’ in his ‘Tech I’ drake for the eighth time today, because that would be harassment and I would get banned eventually.

Almost all participants in this discussion are aware of what is reasonable and what is harassment, being ‘smart’ and attempting to claim that sending twenty eve mails to one person in the space of five minutes is ‘role play’ is only going to end up in someone getting warned or banned.


(Rexxar Santaro) #838

You can filter all my posts in this thread to sort it. I don’t know GigX also and all that story around him. He’s just a well-known scenario about which everybody talks around. I know only, as I remember, that before the Judge turn coat in September 2017, somebody published on reddit/eve a long TXT log file, two months before, about GigX’s conversations with some Imperium dudes during the CFC era. That log-file contained a chat about his IRL-threats also. Who can believe into internet TXT documents nowadays? That was the main reason to point that GigX made IRL-threats before, many times. Planned preparations were made before the Judge betrayal. Therefore, what Judge did on stream was a preparation, a provocation, to force somebody to break any rules in the stance of affect and anger (comparing it with intentional and unintentional violations). Based on those ‘posts’ about his threats in the past even, he (GigX) didn’t MADE any single try to perform his menace, he didn’t hold a gun to his head, and he never made life-threatening. That looks like a bad joke – black comedy.

If you’ll filter my posts in this thread, then you’ll notice that the problem isn’t in GigX ‘theme park’. The issues of modern social games (MMOs) are in PTW concepts and these NEW EULA and their exploits by some players (which were imported from IRL). So, we play the games usually for fun and to take a break from IRL problems, but no more. We have to look at it, to make a right decision, otherwise we (our generation) can create a new ‘social online monster’ in XXI century. Remember the history…

Eccentric and dissenters people, people who lived by their own, were always on Earth, but only during medieval era they become something very bad which must be purged out. This is how the Inquisition appeared, this is how the witch-hunt appeared and acted during centuries. A phenomenon which was a joke primordially, become a state norm afterwards. Due to many historical archives, there were a lot of people who exploited those dogmas just to destroy their political, economic, financial, business, cultural opponents. Ironically, some of their children and grandchildren become victims by such dogmas.

Racism, Discrimination, Sexism is bad and EULA can’t ‘cure’ it. It’s hard to determine why somebody become racist, sexist or something else, but must be a reason. Every human was born without these ‘labels’. EULA can’t cure it… A clever person will never type some racist posts into chats, right? But this passive stance will not remove his racism – he will remain racist. Racist will try to act in a different manner, which isn’t restricted, which is allowed by EULA , laws, whatever – by being toxic, ignorant, arrogant towards somebody and etc.

Just remember Harvey Weinstein - a film producer and ex-owner of Miramax. Like half of the best movies between 1990 and 2010 were made due to his involvement.

In October 2017, The New York Times [46][47] and The New Yorker [3] reported that more than a dozen women accused Weinstein of sexually harassing, assaulting, or raping them. Many other women in the film industry subsequently reported similar experiences with Weinstein,[48][49][50] who denied raping the women. As a result of these accusations, Weinstein was fired from his production company,[51] suspended from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts,[52] expelled from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences,[4] resigned from the Directors Guild of America,[53] left by his wife Georgina Chapman,[54] and denounced by leading figures in politics whom he had supported.[55] The Los Angeles Police Department opened a criminal investigation for alleged rape,[56] and New York and London police are investigating other sexual assault allegations.[57]

In my opinion, if something like that ever happened, they should had been to report that 20 years ago.

Just remember Bill Cosbey - an American stand-up comedian, actor, musician, author, and convicted sex offender.

Norristown, Pennsylvania (CNN) A jury found Bill Cosby guilty of three counts of aggravated indecent assault on Thursday, for drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Constand at his home in a Philadelphia suburb in 2004.

The 80-year-old comedian faces up to 10 years in prison on each count, but Cosby is likely to serve them concurrently. A sentencing hearing with Judge Steven O’Neill has not yet been scheduled, and Cosby remains out on bail.

So, in 2004 Bill Cosbey at age 67 was a “sexual monster” due to Andrea’s words. GG, she found the biggest “monster” on the Earth.

Just remember Bret Kavanaugh - an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.

Over the past month, as Judge Brett Kavanaugh and his confirmation team navigated allegations from woman that he had sexually assaulted them in high school and college, a new – and for some, an unfamiliar – dynamic was at play.

Those comments, along with a sense among White House officials that key senators had lingering questions over Kavanaugh’s judicial temperament rather than concerns over the sexual assault allegations, led to an op-ed published Thursday evening in the Wall Street Journal.

"I was very emotional last Thursday, more so than I have ever been," Kavanaugh wrote. "I might have been too emotional at times. I know that my tone was sharp, and I said a few things I should not have said.

Some fresh sport news:

Huge brawl breaks out after Khabib Nurmagomedov attacks Conor McGregor camp following stunning victory

Somebody said bad things about Khabib family to provoke him and

White said the Nevada State Commission, which sanctioned the contest, has withheld 30-year-old Nurmagomedov’s purse - $2 million - pending an investigation. McGregor was to be paid his, added White.

The Nevada State governor, who was at the contest, is likely to call for an investigation and the Nevada State Athletic Commission could suspend Nurmagomedov’s licence to fight.

And Khabib can be disqualified.

What I’m pointing at? GigX is just a case scenario of these events, which slowly crawling from IRL life to this virtual life through these new EULA and ‘online’ culture. Therefore, what you are talking online today, what you are posting today, can be a source of big problems after 20-30 years. A cleaner or taxi driver shall not worry, but a future successful business man, director can have serious problems.

With these IRL rules, with these virtual EULA rules, just everybody can be taken and totally destroyed selectively.


(Ima Wreckyou) #839

So one mail is “alot” and “spam” and “harassment” to you? Or how many mails did you get after being killed in Highsec? We run a business and try to sell mining permits, so an informal mail to let the gankee know how he can avoid future loss is just helpful for everyone and far from harassment.


(zluq zabaa) #840

Yes I heard about that, but only after GigX was banned. For the reasons you pointed out, I don’t take such logs as automatically true. Especially in EVE, were faking and scamming is part of pretty much everything.

I can not be sure about that, because this is your assumption that he “baited” him to make a IRL threat. It’s possible though. If it was like this, the question is what it even means. I’m kind of certain that the threat he made was never intended to become reality, the thing with the hands. But should that mean we need to normalize verbal threats of violence in EVE and everywhere else? I don’t think we should.

There are large differences between IRL threats, but it also depends on the recipient of the threat how they see it. Personally, the way he formulated the threat seems to make it clear that it isn’t really meant as a threat. If he had made that threat to me, I’d have shrugged it off. I have read much worse threats in EVE (and the players have never been banned), where the way it was expressed was not totally clear how far they would go.

Generally, as a guy who knows real violence, my perspective is that it is good not to let people get away with threats. If you accept it, they’ll either be ready for action at some point or they continue to get on your nerves with it.

I don’t want to get into too specific talks myself, but most people might agree that there are threats, to which you have to react in real life, just to make sure that the threat isn’t becoming true. That’s the problem with the idea of “provocation” as innocent or something. In my country, if someone threatens me with violence and I beat him up, it’s okay. No judge will persecute me (unless I went too far).

Regarding what I know (which may not be everything) about the GigX case, I personally would not have given a perma-ban for the hands-thing. It was (as far as I know) not even directed at the other guy (only speaking about him) and compared to threats I have seen in EVE it is rather “mild” case.

BUT

I like and support that CCP re-affirmed their policy regarding threats and I hope they act much stronger on this in the future. The reason I tried to outline above. Of course aggression and hate is part of everybody, but if we decide to play a game, we need to learn to control ourselves and learn to distinguish. It’s not a game anymore, if the escalation can and will go into killing each other in real life. It’s not what CCP wants, it’s not what the players want. Most if not all players here are not willing to go to real war about a computer game and it’s not the intention of the game to produce something like that.

And again threats for IRL violence are not a joke. Try going out in the streets and make such a joke to people in their face. See how they react.

The internet has brought up a generation of people too far from reality - they think their actions do not have consequence, but they are wrong.

If I understand you correctly, you criticize that GigX was made a special case, even though others behave the same or worse. I think so too and it’s certainly a problem.

I don’t know GigX, but I know some Serbian guys IRL and they are great, but also quite honorable. EVE would not be the right game for them, because the normal consequence of breach of honor would be quite hard in real life, but is not in EVE. EVE is more a game where people celebrate and rationalize backstabbing, cowardice and ass-kissing - it’s hard to play for people with a strong code of honor. They can play it as practise how to deal with the kind of guys, but it’s hard to follow your own bushido if you can’t take normal consequences. This is how the game is made and we all know the rules, so one has to accept it or not take part.

Sure, EULA can’t cure it. Reasons are normally that weak people decide to blame minorities for problems that are caused by the rich. It’s easier to blame the 1% foreigners in your country for something bad, then opposing the rich guys. It’s also easier to blame others for their own difficulties, than accepting things need to change. If women don’t want to be the only one responsible for children, some guys will say “but it was always like that”. No, it was not and it’s not fair. But of course, if this is changing, then man must take more responsibility and have to give up some of their time to care about the children too. And so many more examples. It’s easier to blame another country, because “they take jobs away”, then blame the global company that always looks for cheapest workers and they don’t care what it does to the people.

Adressing the real cause of many problems: the rich becoming richer and the rest becoming poorer - this is hard. It takes courage to face their army of lawyers, media and muscle. It’s so much easier to believe their lies and kick on the minorities. Of course the minorities are not “better people” as some idiot liberals suggest - they are just not guilty of the problems. They are just normal like everybody else.

So I say, it depends on what kind of person you are or you want to be. If you want to be a strong human, you use your strength to protect the weak and stand up against injustice by the rich. If you are a weak human, but you want to feel strong, you kiss ass for the rich and kick the weak.

The latter of course has negative consequences for people who have not done more wrong than you and I. And this is unfair, just because some guys are to coward to face the real issues, they make some peoples life very bad. So it is correct by CCP to intervene and stop this nonsense. Will the cowards change their mind? No. But at least they will not bother everybody else with their “opinion” (aka corward reaction to believing the lies of the rich).

Okay I don’t know if this is any good comparison to GigX, because he only made a threat. But I will try to reply to each of the persons you mention.

The Harvey Weinstein case is a typical rich-people problem. Of course it’s bad what he did, but it’s also bad that the environment he lives in allowed for it to happen. It was not secret and who knows how many people accepted it because they gained advantage from it.

So I don’t like the attention to this case too much. The only reason is because this happens amongst people where everything they do is connected to money, more money and the hope for more money. These people are sick anyway. Is it bad what he did? Sure. But is it a special case? No. There is so much sexual violence in the world and we pretend as if a stupid Hollywood guy is the biggest problem. Then again, if you look at the reactions of people, you will also see how much of a problem their reaction is: some people defend him, some people celebrate being horrible. And some guys are even happy that this happens to some liberal in Hollywood, because then they don’t have to talk about how normal sexual violence is for the right-wing.

Well it may be impossible for you to understand the perspective of the person, but if you try, you may find good explanation why many of victims never go to the police to talk about it.

Weird, that you want to see him as innocent. Cosby admitted that he drugged and raped a women in 1976. More than 40 other women stepped forward. Some had previously in the 40 years before the final trial, already reported him to police without consequences. In some cases the woman were under age. The punishment for the guy comes late, very late, but it is justified.

How would you feel if this happened to your mother, your sisters, your wife or daughter? You still ignore it?

I don’t think you are doing GigX a favor by comparing him to Bill Cosby, unless your intention is to make him look very bad.

Well yes, we see how the change of the US electoral system can mean that a guy, who does not deserve the name “Judge” in front of him, can become member of the highest court. We’ll see how that goes. You know, laws are made from people and Judges are there to interpret them correctly and unbiased. If the highest court stops doing that, there is always the chance that the people just don’t respect the law anymore. The law belongs to everybody and the judges are just accepted as judges, as long as people believe they do a proper job.

Again, not really doing a favor to GigX here.

Okay, this may be the only good comparison. McGregor tried to do this before and I think he was scared of Khabib. It was so clear that Khabib would mob the floor with him. McGregor became too involved with himself and the money, Khabib is more of a warrior. Of course he reacts to insults and provocations, but since the entire UFC is also a circus, a show, an inscenation, he is supposed to act like an actor, not like a warrior. It’s stupid, I agree.

Well I think you compared GigX to people who are really horrible and I don’t know if he deserves that.

About the problems: yes, sure. Not in GigX case, but if people go on with insane threats of violence or sexual harrassment, someone may remember. The same for people in the US now. We don’t yet know where it ends. If the right-wing have their goal, we soon have new war all over the world - in Europe and US and everywhere else. If the left-wing win, some of the right-wing guys will get real big problems for how many problems they have caused. It’s just how it goes. We will see.

If you leave RL stuff out of EVE, if you don’t threaten people IRL using EVE and if you don’t try to incite a circle of hate and mroe hate, there is absolutely nothing you have to worry about.


(Rexxar Santaro) #841

Well, this discussion is passing far beyond the traditional forum format and we trying to act similarly to lawyers or humanists. Means it’s not United Nations and we shouldn’t use some scientific documents and books as attachments. Therefore, I’ll try to use more popular resources.

You can call it “my assumption” or “my deduction”. To make a right decision we have to look at facts to determine the element of an offense and especially its mens rea (guilty mind). The Judge’s mens rea was his revenge (as he stated) to GigX, because the last one did controversial things by ruining his diplomacy deeds. Not many knows when and how (look at photos btw) the Judge become corrupted by Goons (it’s important to make a difference between trivial Goons members and their old core members), but due to “my assumption”, the deal was next – the Judge should damage CO2 Alliance as much as possible also to get a new home in Goon’s pantry. To accomplish his revenge, the Judge had to steal the ISK and assets and move away by doing in game corp/alliance-theft mechanic, but he did something more, which passed the “IRL borders” – he used a in game communication channel to troll and provoke his victim afterwards. EVE chat channels perform the same functions as Skype, ICQ, Discord, Hangouts communication channels, only an application makes difference. Therefore, the Case “Judge GigX” is an interesting scenario, when a hate speech was accomplished without EULA violations. This sort of Hate Speech becomes more and more popular and I’m very disappointed that it becomes a vengeance tool in mases. Previously IRL harassment cases (I pointed at) are just some popular and fresh scenarios from a sea of cases. For example, the Materazzi vs Zidane conflict at World Cup. The mens rea was to demoralize the opponent’s team and their leader to win the match, which is very similar to GigX case as Khabib vs MacGregor team. What I mean under “when a hate speech was accomplished without EULA violations”? Just look at Charlie Hebdo publications. They crossed all possible limits of morality and humanity. Every human, family, society have something holy to believe in, something which helped to survive them at the great price back in the days. Let’s say, todays EULA allows to trample and spit on that without punishment, which traditionally forces human masses to take justice into own hands, because they don’t like to mirror their actions, to act like their offenders to trample holy things just because they understand its price. So, this is why active EULA provocateurs (those which not violates the current rules) are as dangerous as EULA violators, because the first one stirs up enmity while the second one is just a result of it.

Well, not only the in-game mechanic needs balance, but EULA also, similarly to many IRL laws.

Bingo!

Bushido is hard to understand nowadays, it’s just a terminology, no more, no less… not a life-style. I should to mention a life-style principle of bushido practiced back in the days.

Insults between different age categories were forgiven, but between representatives of approximately the same age were punished with death or everything was decided by duels.

About ‘sunset’ of bushido era was made a great non-Japanese movie btw, - “The Last Samurai”. The story is fiction, but it perfectly shows the real social situation during the XIX century. The samurai’s bushido, their honor, didn’t let them act otherwise. That was the most difficult time for a Japanese imperator, which was on the border of civilizations, to make a right decision for the future of Japan. So, Emperor Meiji choose the way of modernization and progress by keeping all possible old traditions. As a result, bushido is a school style, while the honor is a part of Japanese culture nowadays. Unreasonable personal insults in Japan are unacceptable as they are in Ireland, especially in Dublin.

The problem of racism is just a subculture problem nowadays. The True Racism just gone with Ku Klux Klan. There are many reasons why a person doesn’t like another person: because that is too tall, because is too fat, because he speaks with accent, if somebody is just too clever, if somebody is a bit doodle. I saw just too many videos and streams where some people were “lolled”, because they do things irrationally, or vice versa somebody suffered insults, because they are just too clever. It’s similarly to cases when the botanists are insulted in schools. Therefore, the racism is used as vulgar term (a method) to insult somebody or it’s used to blame another one in racism nowadays.

Okay, the GigX ‘theme park’ become quite boring.

I’m not comparing personalities, which is completely wrong, I’m just comparing their cases under different mens rea.

All my IRL examples are simple. Let me explain.

The Harvey Weinstein’s case contains a ‘career’ mens rea. As I understand the official information, he didn’t rape anybody, right? He just did compliments and offers. I’m not a judge to condemn somebody’s sexual life you know. He shouldn’t be punished similarly to Hannibal Lecter in the movie. His actions only show to us about his moral particularities, but not about his criminal deeds. When a married male invites you (a young and single actress) to a hotel room to talk tet-a-tet it’s obvious he’s not going to play checkers with you. Helloooooooooo? Therefore, somebody made a career with Harvey support, during 90x, while nowadays, somebody is making actor career by kicking lying Harvey. That’s all. It happens exactly how it happened with Janna d’Ark. I still don’t understand why Harvey only and why now?

The Cosbey’s case contains a ‘profit’ mens rea. He was sentenced for 2004s deeds, not about deeds from 70x. I and you, I’m sure, completely missed the Hippie era and sexual revolution of 60x-70x. I’m not hurrying to blame somebody, especially for deeds which happened half a century ago. That was another time, another mentality and so on. Things were different that time. If anybody will drink beer and smoke Marijuana, while having sex, it allows… This sounds similarly to todays scandal with Ronaldo and what happened at Vegas. Las Vegas isn’t a Sunday school. It’s bad, in my opinion, when your ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend blaming you in a sexual harassment. As I said, I’m not hurrying to blame somebody. I just highly recommend you to watch the movie

The Bret Kavanaugh’s case contains a ‘political’ subtext. I don’t know the story deep enough. They blame him not due to sexual violations (nothing happened), but because he was at a party drinking beer 30 years ago and because somebody (nobody knows or remember who) tried (just tried or not) to rape somebody. A trivial Hollywood movie scenario about teenager parties at a house. Bret has problems because he should become a high judge for life (after senate voting) by granting to Conservators a +1-vote majority to make important laws for them. Ironically, when this dramatic battle for power will end, everybody will forget this soon enough and only Kavanaugh’s children will suffer some sort of discrimination as usually: “You know, your dad…”.

About Khabib vs McGregor case you got it correctly.

About CCP’s EULA and their punishment. This thread is about new the Policy Update and how good is penalty for violation. It must be, let say, ‘balanced’ based on many points of view about which already were posted. It’s very unfair when one or few players suffered cruel punishment while other suffered nothing by doing the same things, because there are just too many reports about racism and threats. By punishing all of them, will cut away ¼ or 1/3 of EVE subscribers. Isn’t it?

And because of this, it’s not acceptable for anybody at forums or CSM meetings to ask about who gets banned or not. If it isn’t possible to punish every violation, then the ban punishment must be softer. Players are banned just not because they violated the EULA mainly, but because they are reported by players mainly as it happened to Creecher for CSM also. So, people are doing it for meta-game. This is why your last argument isn’t accurate .


(Deckhard Aura) #842

Basically what you’ve said here. If you’re roleplaying in EVE -really-, you’re probably in an isolated environment of some kind.

It’d be akin to my corp member giving another corp member crap in corp. It’s isolated, and typically accepted because they know each other. And if you randomly approach some random person and “roleplay” at them in a super offensive way, you’re probably in the wrong.