Falcon You are selective with your punishments and always cover for your friends. Aside from the fact that you leak inside information about the decisions you have made concerning other users.
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I apologise but youâre talking absolute rubbish.
Bump, Scam, Steal and Suicide âGankâ all they like within the rules, but this rule in particular is what is being broken:
End User Licence Agreement Link
- You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers. This includes, but is not limited to: filing support tickets with false information in an attempt to gain from it or have someone else suffer from it; sending excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or support tickets
- You may not use ârole-playingâ as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.
That behaviour is whatâs bannable, if theyâre not mad that you blew them up, donât send them lots of mail trying to make them mad, because itâs abuse and you know it is.
In wormholes we âgankâ people every last second of the day, I understand itâs going to happen to me in high sec and itâs extremely common-place.
But I donât send a thousand mails to the poor guy weâve just âgankedâ in his âTech Iâ drake for the eighth time today, because that would be harassment and I would get banned eventually.
Almost all participants in this discussion are aware of what is reasonable and what is harassment, being âsmartâ and attempting to claim that sending twenty eve mails to one person in the space of five minutes is ârole playâ is only going to end up in someone getting warned or banned.
You can filter all my posts in this thread to sort it. I donât know GigX also and all that story around him. Heâs just a well-known scenario about which everybody talks around. I know only, as I remember, that before the Judge turn coat in September 2017, somebody published on reddit/eve a long TXT log file, two months before, about GigXâs conversations with some Imperium dudes during the CFC era. That log-file contained a chat about his IRL-threats also. Who can believe into internet TXT documents nowadays? That was the main reason to point that GigX made IRL-threats before, many times. Planned preparations were made before the Judge betrayal. Therefore, what Judge did on stream was a preparation, a provocation, to force somebody to break any rules in the stance of affect and anger (comparing it with intentional and unintentional violations). Based on those âpostsâ about his threats in the past even, he (GigX) didnât MADE any single try to perform his menace, he didnât hold a gun to his head, and he never made life-threatening. That looks like a bad joke â black comedy.
If youâll filter my posts in this thread, then youâll notice that the problem isnât in GigX âtheme parkâ. The issues of modern social games (MMOs) are in PTW concepts and these NEW EULA and their exploits by some players (which were imported from IRL). So, we play the games usually for fun and to take a break from IRL problems, but no more. We have to look at it, to make a right decision, otherwise we (our generation) can create a new âsocial online monsterâ in XXI century. Remember the historyâŚ
Eccentric and dissenters people, people who lived by their own, were always on Earth, but only during medieval era they become something very bad which must be purged out. This is how the Inquisition appeared, this is how the witch-hunt appeared and acted during centuries. A phenomenon which was a joke primordially, become a state norm afterwards. Due to many historical archives, there were a lot of people who exploited those dogmas just to destroy their political, economic, financial, business, cultural opponents. Ironically, some of their children and grandchildren become victims by such dogmas.
Racism, Discrimination, Sexism is bad and EULA canât âcureâ it. Itâs hard to determine why somebody become racist, sexist or something else, but must be a reason. Every human was born without these âlabelsâ. EULA canât cure it⌠A clever person will never type some racist posts into chats, right? But this passive stance will not remove his racism â he will remain racist. Racist will try to act in a different manner, which isnât restricted, which is allowed by EULA , laws, whatever â by being toxic, ignorant, arrogant towards somebody and etc.
Just remember Harvey Weinstein - a film producer and ex-owner of Miramax. Like half of the best movies between 1990 and 2010 were made due to his involvement.
In October 2017, The New York Times [46][47] and The New Yorker [3] reported that more than a dozen women accused Weinstein of sexually harassing, assaulting, or raping them. Many other women in the film industry subsequently reported similar experiences with Weinstein,[48][49][50] who denied raping the women. As a result of these accusations, Weinstein was fired from his production company,[51] suspended from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts,[52] expelled from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences,[4] resigned from the Directors Guild of America,[53] left by his wife Georgina Chapman,[54] and denounced by leading figures in politics whom he had supported.[55] The Los Angeles Police Department opened a criminal investigation for alleged rape,[56] and New York and London police are investigating other sexual assault allegations.[57]
In my opinion, if something like that ever happened, they should had been to report that 20 years ago.
Just remember Bill Cosbey - an American stand-up comedian, actor, musician, author, and convicted sex offender.
Norristown, Pennsylvania (CNN) A jury found Bill Cosby guilty of three counts of aggravated indecent assault on Thursday, for drugging and sexually assaulting Andrea Constand at his home in a Philadelphia suburb in 2004.
The 80-year-old comedian faces up to 10 years in prison on each count, but Cosby is likely to serve them concurrently. A sentencing hearing with Judge Steven OâNeill has not yet been scheduled, and Cosby remains out on bail.
So, in 2004 Bill Cosbey at age 67 was a âsexual monsterâ due to Andreaâs words. GG, she found the biggest âmonsterâ on the Earth.
Just remember Bret Kavanaugh - an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
Over the past month, as Judge Brett Kavanaugh and his confirmation team navigated allegations from woman that he had sexually assaulted them in high school and college, a new â and for some, an unfamiliar â dynamic was at play.
Those comments, along with a sense among White House officials that key senators had lingering questions over Kavanaughâs judicial temperament rather than concerns over the sexual assault allegations, led to an op-ed published Thursday evening in the Wall Street Journal.
"I was very emotional last Thursday, more so than I have ever been," Kavanaugh wrote. "I might have been too emotional at times. I know that my tone was sharp, and I said a few things I should not have said.
Some fresh sport news:
Huge brawl breaks out after Khabib Nurmagomedov attacks Conor McGregor camp following stunning victory
Somebody said bad things about Khabib family to provoke him and
White said the Nevada State Commission, which sanctioned the contest, has withheld 30-year-old Nurmagomedovâs purse - $2 million - pending an investigation. McGregor was to be paid his, added White.
The Nevada State governor, who was at the contest, is likely to call for an investigation and the Nevada State Athletic Commission could suspend Nurmagomedovâs licence to fight.
And Khabib can be disqualified.
What Iâm pointing at? GigX is just a case scenario of these events, which slowly crawling from IRL life to this virtual life through these new EULA and âonlineâ culture. Therefore, what you are talking online today, what you are posting today, can be a source of big problems after 20-30 years. A cleaner or taxi driver shall not worry, but a future successful business man, director can have serious problems.
With these IRL rules, with these virtual EULA rules, just everybody can be taken and totally destroyed selectively.
So one mail is âalotâ and âspamâ and âharassmentâ to you? Or how many mails did you get after being killed in Highsec? We run a business and try to sell mining permits, so an informal mail to let the gankee know how he can avoid future loss is just helpful for everyone and far from harassment.
Well, this discussion is passing far beyond the traditional forum format and we trying to act similarly to lawyers or humanists. Means itâs not United Nations and we shouldnât use some scientific documents and books as attachments. Therefore, Iâll try to use more popular resources.
You can call it âmy assumptionâ or âmy deductionâ. To make a right decision we have to look at facts to determine the element of an offense and especially its mens rea (guilty mind). The Judgeâs mens rea was his revenge (as he stated) to GigX, because the last one did controversial things by ruining his diplomacy deeds. Not many knows when and how (look at photos btw) the Judge become corrupted by Goons (itâs important to make a difference between trivial Goons members and their old core members), but due to âmy assumptionâ, the deal was next â the Judge should damage CO2 Alliance as much as possible also to get a new home in Goonâs pantry. To accomplish his revenge, the Judge had to steal the ISK and assets and move away by doing in game corp/alliance-theft mechanic, but he did something more, which passed the âIRL bordersâ â he used a in game communication channel to troll and provoke his victim afterwards. EVE chat channels perform the same functions as Skype, ICQ, Discord, Hangouts communication channels, only an application makes difference. Therefore, the Case âJudge GigXâ is an interesting scenario, when a hate speech was accomplished without EULA violations. This sort of Hate Speech becomes more and more popular and Iâm very disappointed that it becomes a vengeance tool in mases. Previously IRL harassment cases (I pointed at) are just some popular and fresh scenarios from a sea of cases. For example, the Materazzi vs Zidane conflict at World Cup. The mens rea was to demoralize the opponentâs team and their leader to win the match, which is very similar to GigX case as Khabib vs MacGregor team. What I mean under âwhen a hate speech was accomplished without EULA violationsâ? Just look at Charlie Hebdo publications. They crossed all possible limits of morality and humanity. Every human, family, society have something holy to believe in, something which helped to survive them at the great price back in the days. Letâs say, todays EULA allows to trample and spit on that without punishment, which traditionally forces human masses to take justice into own hands, because they donât like to mirror their actions, to act like their offenders to trample holy things just because they understand its price. So, this is why active EULA provocateurs (those which not violates the current rules) are as dangerous as EULA violators, because the first one stirs up enmity while the second one is just a result of it.
Well, not only the in-game mechanic needs balance, but EULA also, similarly to many IRL laws.
Bingo!
Bushido is hard to understand nowadays, itâs just a terminology, no more, no less⌠not a life-style. I should to mention a life-style principle of bushido practiced back in the days.
Insults between different age categories were forgiven, but between representatives of approximately the same age were punished with death or everything was decided by duels.
About âsunsetâ of bushido era was made a great non-Japanese movie btw, - âThe Last Samuraiâ. The story is fiction, but it perfectly shows the real social situation during the XIX century. The samuraiâs bushido, their honor, didnât let them act otherwise. That was the most difficult time for a Japanese imperator, which was on the border of civilizations, to make a right decision for the future of Japan. So, Emperor Meiji choose the way of modernization and progress by keeping all possible old traditions. As a result, bushido is a school style, while the honor is a part of Japanese culture nowadays. Unreasonable personal insults in Japan are unacceptable as they are in Ireland, especially in Dublin.
The problem of racism is just a subculture problem nowadays. The True Racism just gone with Ku Klux Klan. There are many reasons why a person doesnât like another person: because that is too tall, because is too fat, because he speaks with accent, if somebody is just too clever, if somebody is a bit doodle. I saw just too many videos and streams where some people were âlolledâ, because they do things irrationally, or vice versa somebody suffered insults, because they are just too clever. Itâs similarly to cases when the botanists are insulted in schools. Therefore, the racism is used as vulgar term (a method) to insult somebody or itâs used to blame another one in racism nowadays.
Okay, the GigX âtheme parkâ become quite boring.
Iâm not comparing personalities, which is completely wrong, Iâm just comparing their cases under different mens rea.
All my IRL examples are simple. Let me explain.
The Harvey Weinsteinâs case contains a âcareerâ mens rea. As I understand the official information, he didnât rape anybody, right? He just did compliments and offers. Iâm not a judge to condemn somebodyâs sexual life you know. He shouldnât be punished similarly to Hannibal Lecter in the movie. His actions only show to us about his moral particularities, but not about his criminal deeds. When a married male invites you (a young and single actress) to a hotel room to talk tet-a-tet itâs obvious heâs not going to play checkers with you. Helloooooooooo? Therefore, somebody made a career with Harvey support, during 90x, while nowadays, somebody is making actor career by kicking lying Harvey. Thatâs all. It happens exactly how it happened with Janna dâArk. I still donât understand why Harvey only and why now?
The Cosbeyâs case contains a âprofitâ mens rea. He was sentenced for 2004s deeds, not about deeds from 70x. I and you, Iâm sure, completely missed the Hippie era and sexual revolution of 60x-70x. Iâm not hurrying to blame somebody, especially for deeds which happened half a century ago. That was another time, another mentality and so on. Things were different that time. If anybody will drink beer and smoke Marijuana, while having sex, it allows⌠This sounds similarly to todays scandal with Ronaldo and what happened at Vegas. Las Vegas isnât a Sunday school. Itâs bad, in my opinion, when your ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend blaming you in a sexual harassment. As I said, Iâm not hurrying to blame somebody. I just highly recommend you to watch the movie
The Bret Kavanaughâs case contains a âpoliticalâ subtext. I donât know the story deep enough. They blame him not due to sexual violations (nothing happened), but because he was at a party drinking beer 30 years ago and because somebody (nobody knows or remember who) tried (just tried or not) to rape somebody. A trivial Hollywood movie scenario about teenager parties at a house. Bret has problems because he should become a high judge for life (after senate voting) by granting to Conservators a +1-vote majority to make important laws for them. Ironically, when this dramatic battle for power will end, everybody will forget this soon enough and only Kavanaughâs children will suffer some sort of discrimination as usually: âYou know, your dadâŚâ.
About Khabib vs McGregor case you got it correctly.
About CCPâs EULA and their punishment. This thread is about new the Policy Update and how good is penalty for violation. It must be, let say, âbalancedâ based on many points of view about which already were posted. Itâs very unfair when one or few players suffered cruel punishment while other suffered nothing by doing the same things, because there are just too many reports about racism and threats. By punishing all of them, will cut away Âź or 1/3 of EVE subscribers. Isnât it?
And because of this, itâs not acceptable for anybody at forums or CSM meetings to ask about who gets banned or not. If it isnât possible to punish every violation, then the ban punishment must be softer. Players are banned just not because they violated the EULA mainly, but because they are reported by players mainly as it happened to Creecher for CSM also. So, people are doing it for meta-game. This is why your last argument isnât accurate .
Basically what youâve said here. If youâre roleplaying in EVE -really-, youâre probably in an isolated environment of some kind.
Itâd be akin to my corp member giving another corp member crap in corp. Itâs isolated, and typically accepted because they know each other. And if you randomly approach some random person and âroleplayâ at them in a super offensive way, youâre probably in the wrong.
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This is a direct reply to the original poster CCP Falcon. I have spent a few weeks now and have managed to read the last 786 replies to this message. Thank you Falcon for bringing up a topic which is sensitive and with potential real life consequences.
There was a character (I will just call him JUGsY) that was banned for what appeared to me as making a veiled threat in a forum which is not owned or operated by CCP. It was covered by media with claims that this person threatened to âdismemberâ another EVE player. As an EVE player for about a decade now, yes that got my attention.
Here is what happened in REAL LIFE with me and my family after that happened. My partner and I had a discussion about it (since I spend hours a day in New Eden) and we looked online to see what the person said and what CCP said he said. We determined that since the comment did not actually constitute a threat and was not made on EVE, the person being banned was most certainly unfairly treated. We discussed how destroying the online life on an innocent person or someone at least with no criminal charges or trial by the standards of any civilized society could actually become a threat due to their unfair treatment.
Then came the Las Vegas shooting. My partner called me and said âDo you think it was that EVE guy?â Well, in reality EVE Las Vegas was not actually during the Las Vegas massacre. That mass shooting was on October 1st 2017 where someone in the Mandalay Bay Hotel fired on a bunch of people attending a concert. The EVE event appears to have started 5 days later on October 6th.
After having played EVE for about a decade, I have always been interested in going to one of the live events. I watch the videos, I know how long it takes to get to Iceland (the worst part is flying over Greenland that takes forever!) but more realistically if I ever can it would be in Las Vegas, United States.
After my partner and I both thought seriously that the Las Vegas shooting might have been related to âJUGsYâ our plans to go to one of the events have been shelved due to concerns about personal safety.
And then you have the summer 2018 gaming convention real life shooting in Florida with 3 dead;
If you take âJugsYâ for example, this guy was a fleet commander, corp CEO or some big shot and to do something like that in New Eden you have to dedicate all of your waking hours of your life to it. That is your life pretty much. I would never wish for that, but I understand after having been an EVE CEO for a while. It can be consuming and oh yeah, it can be fun. I just donât have the time, but do understand it. One of the EVE live panels as a great video of the life of a Fleet Commander.
For CCP to basically destroy the real life of a player that lived in New Eden with no fair due process, to ban him or her and eliminate all of the work, assets and social interaction in an entire persons daily life, with no criminal charges, no investigation and no due process based on something said on a forum or media not even related to nor controlled by CCP, is the type of action that could create these real life shooters / killers. It leaves them with nothing but anger and probably the feeling of nothing more to lose. Thatâs not good. Thatâs really, really dangerous. And CCP did this.
So CCP Falcon, you started this topic and it is appreciated. It needed to be discussed and I am sorry I have not had time to give my input until now. I have been meaning to say all of this for a long time, since I first saw this thread.
CCP Falcon. A question for you. Is CCP providing or planning to provide security to protect your guests at EVE live events, from these people whom CCP has unfairly angered with bans of the sort of âJugsYâ and others that were not given any fair trial? That is what we really would like to know for real life protection and safety.
My partner and I really do want to go to one of the live events but as mentioned the Las Vegas thing actually scared us. We had been planning to attend (it would have been our first live event) but got too busy and plane tickets were too expensive or something, and then the Mandalay Bay thing was on the news where we actually thought it could have been related. And I KNOW, people at the Eve event also had to wonder at at least some point when the news on that first broke.
Yes, very sensitive topic and thank you for bringing it out in the open and welcoming community input.
Masuhari Yakimoto
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WowâŚyou are way too wrapped up emotionally in a game. You need to at least take a long break from EvE.
In response to Aetrid
It said âWowâŚyou are way too wrapped up emotionally in a game. You need to at least take a long break from EvE.â
Aetrid, being wrapped up in a game is what games are for. It makes for a good game. I would rather be wrapped up in a game than be dead (taking a permanent break from life) from a gaming convention shooting caused by the actions of a publisher.
Do you have anything else to add, perhaps something constructive?
Masuhari Yakimoto
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If you are advocating that some RL court process be needed before removing possible toxic people from the EVE community, then you have failed to read and understand the ToS/EULA. Itâs their game and they decide what behavior they tolerate. Ive fired people for actions outside of my practice; dismissed patients as well. All was done sans any legal repercussions because each group had signed employment/patient agreements with possible infractions and subsequent consequences spelled out.
If you are advocating increased security at CCP events, then that responsibility is up to the venue to provide.
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Buoytender Bob, While your comments are appreciated your mention of your own real life experience with âdismissed patientsâ and your own experiences with âlegal repercutions (sic)â , âsigned employment/patients agreementsâ are not what this discussion is about. Thank you for sharing those thoughts.
This discussion is about what CCP Falcon started and linked to.
and
https://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/real-life-harassment-threats-policy-en/
Your statement in regards to CCP event security âthen that responsibility is up to the venue to provide.â is far reaching and with no basis or fact. Until CCP can provide a statement that they are providing security to such events, your statement which seems to shift the responsibility to the venue is nothing more than an assumption.
My concern is the real life threats created for the events by CCP banning people such as âJugsYâ with no due or fair evident process, based on the use of a venue not owned nor operated by CCP. Thus creating dangers for those of us that want to safely attend the events.
Thank you for sharing your real life experiences in legal situations not related to this topic.
Masuhari Yakimoto
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Solecist, is that you?..
Actually, what I said would be very constructive for you, but if you were willing to look at yourself and see how it applies to you you wouldnât think what I said was unconstructive in the first placeâŚsoâŚokâŚsureâŚ
Immersion in a game world is fun, confusion between a game world and the real world is problematic.
By wanting some sort of âdue processâ etc etc in a video game for the company who makes and runs that game and owns all the virtual everything in that game (something everyone agrees to for even starting EvE) you are at least strongly pushing that separation.
My personal experience is that most Eve-players can differentiate between game and real life. You are much more likely getting punched in the face over something you do at the event (RL) over something you did in-game.
If you are worried about getting shot, move to another country.
Total lawfare FTW
The problem is liability. There are courts that can, and will, hold the game owners liable if they know real life threats are being made in game and no action was taken against the user. As these threats often times are a case of perception on the victimâs behalf it would require resources that arenât economically viable to provide due process. Hence the zero tolerance policy if there is proof.
I agree with you 100% there. Very litigious environment indeed. In fact many courts decide on the behalf of the players / subscribers when it comes to intellectual property created in game. But thatâs not what we are talking about.
In the case of âJugsYâ the so called âthreat of dismembermentâ covered by the media, not only was it not an actual threat of such, it wasnât even made in game. It was a comment posted on a third party application or âwebsiteâ if you wish which was not and is not owned nor operated by CCP.
So at what point will they start banning people for a âZero tolerance policyâ for comments made on Youtube? Last time I checked, Google owns Youtube, not CCP.
This appears to be the publisher clearly overstepping their bounds.
Can CCP ban you for making a real life threat in the game? Well of course and as you have stated they probably do have a legal liability to do so. But to ban someone for saying something on a venue NOT IN GAME but not even associated with CCP?
See, that is where I see the grave error. I think that creates not only a massive legal problem, but as the original poster seemed to be seeking feedback on, it creates a potentially very angry and wronged person.
Imagine being a fleet commander or a corp CEO? That would take every waking hour of your REAL life to do it right. Some people do that. I never will because I donât have time, but I get it. When EVE becomes a persons life, and then they are unfairly banned and accused of saying something that they did not in fact say, especially on a forum or website not even connected to the game? Thatâs dangerous.
I believe CCP made a huge mistake but I also believe they are doing the best they can or know how to. This thread proves that they are trying to learn to get better.
-MY
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CCP can ban you from the game because they find it funny.
Itâs their property to do with as they will.
So they can ban you for comments on youtube all they want. And itâs not overstepping their bounds.
The ToS and EULA are clear and, despite the fact that 99% of the people playing EVE just click the accept button when they are presented to them without reading through the long list of legalese, hold up perfectly well when challenged. Donât want to play the game under the rules as stated by its creators? Then simply click the âdeclineâ button and move on to another game. Donât want a job, join a club, hold a license, get a loan etc. under the terms of the written agreement that goes with the arrangement, even if it affects areas of your life outside the primary relationship? Then donât sign your name. Pretty easy and clear. I know from personal experiences in RL it holds up fine under legal examination. If there is verifiable evidence that confirms a violation of the ToS or EULA, whether a player or others thinks itâs fair or not, CCP is free to impose whatever penalty they want in regards to gameplay and in game assetsâŚand everyone playing EVE agreed to that.
I know, Iâm necroing a dead topic. Sorry.
Still, I think itâs clear that people are against subjective terms being used in the TOS and laws because it is always abused by control freaks. Despite this game being a fantasy where we can enjoy a break from real life it is still being pushed into the game itself; by the very same control freaks. Iâve come to learn that CCP is almost certainly acting out of pressure, not ideology(I hope). Legal pressure and activist pressure are the two factors pushing this stuff so I donât fully blame CCP for it. One thing CCP should keep in mind though is that this has and will kill businesses. First by slandering CCP as a company promoting hate, terrorism, etc, and then trying to take legal action against them. This is why CCP has these new TOS terms, nothing else and I hope you can find legal protections against it.