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That’s a matter of interpretation, sovereignty being the authority of a state to govern itself or other states.

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Not really. A loss of sovereignty would require a complete loss of control. We don’t have that. We choose to be part of multiple international treaties which require us to follow certain rules, but we can also opt to cease those agreements. We’d only be losing sovereignty if we lost the ability to opt out of the agreements.

It’s overly ever been anti-EU types that have tried to make the claim that choosing to follow a common set of rules affects our sovereignty because it allows them to put forward the false narrative that we’ve lost something so they can campaign to get it back.

In EVE terms it’s like joining a group that outlaws piracy. You haven’t lost your ability to engage in piracy, you’ve simply agreed that you won’t engage in it while part of that group. At any point you can choose to either leave the group or break the groups guidelines and suffer whatever consequences come from that.

We haven’t lost sovereignty? Then explain the EU’s demand for control over our fishing waters.

Which just shows your total lack of knowledge on this subject. I’m English, we did not get to vote on the Scottish referndum.

Brilliant comments Jonah, nice to hear from someone with a well developed knowledge of this subject unlike others here.

No, we haven’t. We joined a group of nation who agree to cooperate on laws and regulatory controls to maintain a tight alignment to minimise friction. It’s optional and we maintain complete control over our membership.

The EU aren’t demanding control over our fishing waters. The EU want to fish in our waters and we want to trade with the EU, so that’s being negotiated.

Amusingly fishing was one of the most misrepresented arguments during the referendum. It was presented as us not having any control over fishing and the EU stealing all of our fish, while in reality we actually had a massive quota of overall EU fishing rights because the quotas were built on historic fishing levels when we did it a lot more.

The reason EU boats were using our quota is because the UK government distributed the UK quota in what worked out to be effectively a “biggest first” approach. That meant that large companies got huge amounts of the UK quota and they then sold that quota on to other nations. If the UK government had flipped that around and distributed our quota to independent fishermen first with only the remainder going to large companies, our fishing industry would be in a much better place.

But it’s easier just to go “the EU did it” than face reality.

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Yes, we didn’t get to vote, as it should have been.

Stayed up all night watching that Scottish referendum. If they want to leave they’re quite welcome to as long as they stop using our currency and British passports.

My understanding when originally joining the EU (British people got a vote on it) it was just a trading agreement. Later it became something else (British people didn’t get to vote). So now the British people have voted on what the EU has become.

Really? They’re demanding that we have to give them fishing rights otherwise we won’t get a deal and that’s just one thing.

It hasn’t really become something else, scope has just grown as the world has become smaller. And yes, the Biritsh people have had a fresh chance to vote on something they know almost nothing about and have chosen self-harm based on promises that are unachievable.

No, they are stating they want access to our fishing waters as part of the negotiation. That’s exactly what we’re doing to. When you enter into a negotiation both side say what they want and push to get that. The EU have been absolutely crystal clear on their red lines. Stop pretending they are being unreasonable just because the PM who held the policy “we will have our cake and eat it too” is unable to deliver.

This is part of the problem with the referendum in the first place. A populist somewhere has posted a twisted distortion of what the EU are doing and you’re happy to just accept it because you agree with it. The same thing was done to millions of people who then voted to leave. Now when the consequences are coming down the same people are still blaming them on the EU rather than take responsibility for their own actions. It’s madness.

Apologies, that was how it was reported in the states, go figure, the press lied :crazy_face:

I’m not pretending anything, from what I’ve seen they are being unreasonable.

I always make my own mind up. I don’t trust any politician or even the media as they’ve proved themselves to be anything but neutral in their reporting. Makes navigating the truth a lot harder.

Where have you seen that though? And what’s your definition of unreasonable? You realise that it’s unreasonable to expect them to bend over backwards to deliver our demands, right? Their red lines were set before we had the vote and they have not changed. That’s fairly reasonable.

You need to make sure you’re sourcing enough independent information though. At the end of the day unless you’re in the room you’re going to be relying on seomeone else telling you what’s what, so you need to make sure you’re looking at a large variety of sources. Based on your views on this and on immigration I’d say you’re not looking widely enough.

I don’t think the EU is really ‘winning’ though, the Brexit hurts the EU as well. Maybe not as much as it hurts the UK though.

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on the subject of scotland. I was born, live and work in W.Scotland, have done for the vast majority of my life, save for a few summer jobs here and there when I was at university. Since 2014 though, and the referendum, an increasing number of people that I encounter through my work (Local council housing stuff) have asked me “where do you come from ?”, and their tone has been somewhat less pleasant in more recent times. Which feels like the country is becoming a bit more xenophobic.
Or maybe it’s just that weegie schemies have become dumber and can no longer tell the difference between an Ayrshire accent and an English one.

Given the losses to the GPB vs. the Euro I think Scotland would be better off dropping the losing currency.

Really? They’re demanding that we have to give them fishing rights otherwise we won’t get a deal and that’s just one thing.

What do you expect when one side has all of the power in negotiations? You voted to scrap all of your existing deals and renegotiate from a position of complete inferiority, why should the EU be obligated to make up for your poor decision at their own expense?

Kind of felt sorry for Scotland somewhat, although the vote was collected individually it was cast as a whole. Leading to the situation of Scotland wanting to remain when the vote went to leave.

You’re right, I didn’t expect much more, which is why no deal is always on the table.

Do you even know what that means though? No deal shouldn’t be on the table because it’s economic suicide for the UK. We’re an import economy that wants to drop to WTO rules with all of it’s closest neighbours and start shipping lower quality products half way round the world.

In a normal negotiaton, you always have the option to walk away, yes. But when you walk away you return to the status quo. No deal is not the status quo which is why this nonsense that we should include an option for self harm makes no sense.

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Sure, if the UK wants to commit complete economic suicide. The UK needs a deal more than the EU does, threatening “no deal” is like trying to rob someone by threatening to shoot yourself if they don’t give you all their money. The EU can just shrug, leave the UK to its fate, and demand even more concessions when the UK comes back in a few years and begs to be let back in.

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The problem with WTO is it mainly revolves around manufactured goods and not much with services and of course the UK is heavy in services.

But whatever, we’ll just have to see what happens. It was always going to be a bumpy ride at least to start with.

If we go onto WTO it’ll be more than a bumpy ride. Other countries will love it because they’ll be able to get pretty much anything they want out of us when they negotiate deals because we’ll be so desperate to secure them.