Protection for newbies required

[Markus_Reinhart]

And freighters are not newbie content.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Markus_Reinhart

And freighters are not newbie content.

Well, they are if you use your credit card and skill injectors and such. But yes, if you rush into something before you learn various aspects of the game with far less expensive ships and such…it may very well appear “hard”. I would say it would be more accurate that it was a case of foolishness.

[Nicolai_Serkanner]

@Markus_Reinhart

Salvoshed, Lucassed. It’s the same thing.

Absolutely.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Lucas_Kell

Another strawman. At no point did I hinge my argument solely on that. I stated a number of reasons why, all of which I see as accurate. Your arguments have then been to point out stuff exists, which doesn’t actually affect my point. If there are more mechanics to learn and there are more gankers/wardeccers/griefers in highsec, and those gankers/wardeccers/greifers have up to 15 years worth of mechanic refining and minmaxing experience then by all reasonable logic the game is now harder for newbies than it used to be. If you want to prove otherwise, feel free, but telling me that things used to exist too isn’t a winner mate.

And exactly how many newbies does Mini Luv gank? I’m going to guess that zero is a really good approximation. So that is one “ganking organization” we can forget about.

And how often does a t1 travel frigate that is empty get ganked in HS? Again, I am going to guess not very often and zero is much closer to the actual number than “almost certainly”.

So…who is the one full of straw here? Hmmm…

[Teckos_Pech]

@Lucas_Kell

Then why did you bring them up?

I brought them up. And that is one of the primary gank targets. That and soft tanked mining ships via CODE. Aside from that there are not many other targets that are routinely ganked…but hey, put up some actual facts (e.g. data) and show us.

[Markus_Reinhart]

This is the list of ganked ships: https://zkillboard.com/kills/ganked/ You have to look really hard to find any ships on there an actual newbie would fly.

They could of course inject SP and buy funky stuff but at that point I don’t class them as newbies. If you wan to use “grown up” SP and fly “grown up” ships with “grown up” fits and cost, you’ll be treated like a grown up.

“ganking causes newbies to quit” is nonsense, first of all it hardly ever happens (compared to other forms of ganking) and secondly CCP STATED (using facts and numbers) that being engaged in PVP (and that includes ganking) is a really good way to get them invested and longing for more, if only for revenge.

All Lucas wants is, apart from an argument, to make lazy play styles easier. It has nothing to do with “for the newbies”.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Lucas_Kell

I’m saying there are far more mechanics now, which there absolutely are, that’s undeniable.

Ok, please elaborate what you exactly mean. I listed some examples on why I think it is easier now than then. Why don’t you actually tell us what complicated mechanic is there today that wasn’t years ago?

[Teckos_Pech]

@Lucas_Kell

I’ve done many myself. There was a travel fit Dramiel killed today too.

There we go! Lucas is absolutely right! A dramiel was ganked. With such overwhelming evidence he is clearly right!

[Teckos_Pech]

@Markus_Reinhart

“ganking causes newbies to quit” is nonsense, first of all it hardly ever happens (compared to other forms of ganking) and secondly CCP STATED (using facts and numbers) that being engaged in PVP (and that includes ganking) is a really good way to get them invested and longing for more, if only for revenge.

Indeed, I believe it was CCP Rise who looked at this and the conclusion it was largely nonsense.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Lucas_Kell

while I’m talking mechanics in general

Yeah ok, stopped reading after that sentence. If you have to pull bs like that just to be right on a forum argument there is probably nothing interesting coming out of a discussion with you anyway. bye

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Lucas_Kell

I just didn’t realise you’d fundamentally misunderstood my point earlier on

I was pretty clear what I was talking about.

@Lucas_Kell

To be honest I’m not exactly sad you’re ragequitting the thread because you rarely bring anything new to a discussion, just “waaah leave ganking alone, I like easy kills”.

Haha, that from you. the only thing you ever bring to a discussion is a basket full of lies and some gut feelings. I have never seen you actually backup your assumption with actual evidence.

[Ima_Wreckyou]

@Lucas_Kell

I generally don’t bring gut feelings at all anyway

It’s all you do

[Teckos_Pech]

@Lucas_Kell

Oh look, T1 frigates and mining barges.

Wow more impressive evidence. One guy.

@Lucas_Kell

It’s not really. I’d say it is probably more likely just to put people off starting to be honest. But that’s not the point I was making.

Except CCP when looking at this found there was no such relationship…you know the guys with the actual data. I know, I know…they are lying or can’t do statistics or something.

@Ima_Wreckyou

Ok, please elaborate what you exactly mean.

@Lucas_Kell

It used to be it was fairly simple to learn, everything was pretty much the same, you just had to deal with a clunky UI, now you log in and have like a billion windows with flashing things all over the place and wildly different looking windows that you’ve got to figure out, and in the meantime you’ve got to avoid the vast array of pitfalls that make you instantly dead, some of which are just the use of existing game mechanics (autopilot being a prime example, it’s a button right there on your screen that pretty much guarantees death).

I guess the answer is no, he can’t elaborate exactly what he means. “A billion windows.”

[Jenn_aSide]

@Kaivarian_Coste

To OP, have you ever experienced this kind of emotional anguish in any other game? Probably no? That’s what attracts many of us to Eve. Losses are real.

So many people don’t understand this.

There is a bad cycle that happens over and over in EVE. People hear about this harsh and complex game so they give it a try, because they like those things. They get there butts whupped playing the game as a new player (by npcs AND players). The use those experiences to learn how to survive and eventually thrive. They feel a sense of accomplishment at this that keeps them playing.

Then a mis-guided but well meaning (and maybe a little desperate to please the ‘powers that be’ that they work for) Development team make changes to the game “in the name of the new player” in the hopes of making it easier so those new players will stay longer.

This backfires horribly, because the kind of people who would stay long term in a game like this don’t even like such hand-holding, and the people who would benefit from such hand holding would never become long term players no matter what you do. The attempt itself (to “open up” the game) hurts retention because not only does it turn off the new players who want a challenge, but the older players who survived the challenge already see their achievements devalued in the name of “helping new players”.

IMO EVE Online is still great but it’s been going in the wrong direction for at least the last 6 and a half years. Worst of all, when you say this to people, when you suggest that the best way to help “new players” is to let them help themselves, the bleeding heart “think of the children” types come out of the wood work to call you hearltless, or worse…a ganker (lol).

[Markus_Reinhart]

@Jenn_aSide

IMO EVE Online is still great but it’s been going in the wrong direction for at least the last 6 and a half years. Worst of all, when you say this to people, when you suggest that the best way to help “new players” is to let them help themselves, the bleeding heart “think of the children” types come out of the wood work to call you hearltless, or worse…a ganker (lol).

I’ve been in Rookie channel for well over a decade helping rookies with simple questions but also, within limits, take the time to take them aside and explain the deeper details. I am direct and factual, not something everyone likes but then the game is direct and factual so more often than not I’m simply conveying what EVE actually IS. Having said that, if I get a feeling someone is outspokenly lazy or stupid I’ll call him out on that. What irks most people is when I (have to) correct other people stating things to newbies that are either blatantly wrong, misguided or perhaps just lacking detail. Because I CARE about newbies getting the best and most complete (within reason) info to help them get along.

Years ago I ran corps to teach newbies EVE and pvp proper, many of those still play and do so in well known (non blobby) PVP groups.

I have been, and will again, run an alt that will give out stuff (fitted ships and other useful stuff that gives newbies something to look forward to). Not on the level of what Mike does (I’m not that much of a saint) but I try to do my best and my part.

Back when I did wardeccing and can flipping I’d take the time to educate newbies if they showed an inclination to interaction. I still do this when PVPing or ganking and someone goes “wth just happened” in a non-ragey manner.

I’ve had several YouTube channels with starter guides, helping newbies understand game mechanics, explaining other forms of play styles an income than “go mine or run missions”, just to give them options. Some of those videos are still used by EVE Uni to this day.

So without trying to boast or anything, I can safely say that I do more than my part to help get newbies in to the game and increase their retention. Probably more than most people.

Newbies are not helped by pampering, at least not the kind of newbies who are worth investing time in to: the type who wants to succeed in a competitive environment and is happy to put in effort. We REALLY don’t need more semi-afk “hop from one f2p game to another” players, they are going to leave anyway when the next shiny game comes a long and they’re not interested in the whole sandbox pvp concept.

So “think of the newbies” is most of the time just a lie and should be translated to “I personally want this to change”, the newbies who matter don’t care about it and don’t need it, the newbies who require pampering will leave anyway, whatever you do.

[Rifter_Enthusiast]

the game has been around for over a decade. newbies have never needed protection before. newbies have it easier than ever considering the safety switch, jetcan steal warnings, etc etc etc… newbies are already protected more than they should be

[Nevyn_Auscent]

Newbies a decade ago didn’t have 15 year players with super carriers ratting to fund them who can afford to throw away isk ganking people.
Newbies a decade ago didn’t have a botter funneling their 8-10 super carrier bots into a massive highsec wardec alliance meaning infinite funding for that alliance basically to bash them.
I could go on…

Basically pointing at stuff a decade ago as reasons to not change something now shows how you fail to grasp the fundamentals of EVE, that of the changing player meta. And what that Meta then means.

Now, I’m still not on board with giving newbies artificial protection, but today’s newbie does face challenges very different to what people faced a decade ago, and that should be recognized.

[Markus_Reinhart]

Newbies aren’t affected by people ratting in super carriers.

I don’t rat in supercarriers, or own any sort of cap or super cap (I don’t like caps), It never stopped me from doing just fine. Sounds more like “waah some people have more than I do”. Me personally I don’t CARE if they have more than I do, it doesn’t hamper me at all.

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Markus_Reinhart

Newbies aren’t affected by people ratting in super carriers.

Tell that to anyone ever wardeced by PIRATE

[Markus_Reinhart]

They got wardecced before PIRAT and they will be wardecced after PIRAT. Your ulterior motive is showing, it still smells like “waaah some people have more than I do” .