Proving of Kybernauts for Glorification in the Flow Unfolds

I would like to come to solutions part and looking forward to it…

therefor first i m waiting for experienced knowledgeable pilots to challenge it …
Then we can make a better evaluation together and work on solution together and come with grounded suggestions we can present and stand behind it.

I dont know if they are open to make some adjustments or if its possible to apply before release time But no matter what we do our best to come with some solid grounded ideas . Before and after release

and i think its beautifull CCP give us oportunity to voice our opinions and challange here… IF we can come with solid grounded ideas serving for good … that would be our thanks back to them and to our community

Removed some off topic posts and posts attacking other players. Knock it off. That goes for everyone. Last warning.

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With the announcement of “Proving of Kybernauts for Glorification in the Flow Unfolds”, i.e., fully instanced PVP, certain members of the CSM have taken it upon themselves to sell this feature to the playerbase. Their arguments ignore the larger context of PVP and EVE gameplay; they claim that this is ‘just one more feature/try it before you criticize’, etc. The response, that instanced PVP is ‘un-EVElike’ is correct but also lacks context. It is not instanced PVP mechanics in and of themselves that are the problem, but what their introduction as currently envisioned means in the context of the changes to conflict-driving mechanics over the past several years. Simply put, the overall pattern of changes to the game means the gradual segregation of PVP into designated ‘zones’ (nullsec, lowsec, and arenas) while reducing it to near zero in highsec. The effect has been and will be a reduction in meaningful player interaction and overall player numbers.

Over the years, we have seen countless examples of highsec aggression nerfs: the killing off of can flipping via Crimewatch and gigantic ore bays, multiple wardec nrefs that resulted in the end of most small scale wardecs, etc. Each time, we have heard that the nerfs were needed to “protect new players” or “provide consequences for bad behavior”. Greater highsec safety was said to be a way to draw in more players so CCP would have more revenue with which to improve the game. After nearly ten years, what has the result been? Lower player counts, with each drop being heralded by a nerf to highsec aggression. This is the context into which instanced PVP is being released.

Most of the arguments surrounding instanced PVP have centered around whether the new arenas will reduce or increase the overall amount of PVP or the number of players engaging in PVP. More important, however, is not how these changes impact the quantity of PVP, but its quality. What does this mean? Player retention in EVE has historically best been driven by social interaction between players. The more social interactions a player has during a play session, the more likely they are to stick around and continue playing long-term. Recently, the developers have experimented with systems that habituate players into logging in and playing via various mechanisms (the login reward system is an example of this), but these cannot compare with the staying power of unscripted social interaction. As many players have put it, “Friendship is the best ship in EVE”. The mechanics that drive this type of player interaction and retention for new players in EVE are PVP mechanics in highsec , as CCP itself reported at Fanfest some years ago. It is not nullsec fleet battles nor lowsec ‘gudfites’ nor PVE ISK grinding that retain new players, but highsec aggression: ganking, wardeccing, theft, and the like. Why? Because these mechanics limit aggression while also allowing it to be potentially open-ended and unscripted, leading to the open-ended and unscripted social interaction that EVE thrives on. We can say, therefore, that such PVP is high quality in terms of potential for social interaction and player retention.

Instanced PVP is very different. It is closed-ended, having a set time limit; it is scripted, since both players know when and where they will fight and even the number and type of ship they will face. It does not encourage player-retaining social interaction beyond a bare few post-match messages at best. In the context of any other game, in which players are retained via habituation and regular infusions of new content, this would not necessarily be a bad thing. In EVE, however, anything that dilutes social interaction in this way damages the game’s social ecosystem. Considered alongside the many nerfs to highsec aggression, the introduction of instanced PVP is exactly the wrong kind of change. Rather than trying to ‘catch up’ in terms of what other games do well, CCP should be focused on improving and iterating on what EVE does well.

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:salt:

No, we haven’t. We shared our opinions on it.

That’s good advice.

LOL, here we go with another “no, really, all the HARDCORE PvP is in highsec!” arguments.

We’re seeing higher player retention numbers, hiring DAU and MAU numbers now than any time in the last four years. In our heyday, back in 2013, when we had 60k+ people logging in, it wasn’t because of highsec PvP.

There is room in the game for folks who want to hop in, grab a buddy, do a filament, and then go do something else. Not everyone can block off multiple hours at a time for fleet fights or long-term sessions with friends. This gives people something fun and meaningful to do in a short session. There is room in the game for stuff like this, and the chances of it hurting anything long term seem pretty negligble to me.

For the same reason I don’t play golf - I don’t have the time or the patience to waste half a day on the game - there are tens of thousands of people who don’t play EVE. If this helps attract or keep players, it will be worth it.

But, again, if you don’t like it, don’t use it. If enough people don’t use it, they won’t come back. These are live events, after all, not something permanent.

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Indeed, stridently and often with no CSM speaking up in criticism of the proposed changes. Context.

Nonsense, I said nothing of the sort. This is pure ad hominem. Most players (and nearly all new players) live in highsec, therefore highsec PVP should be encouraged instead of discouraged.

You have been asked repeatedly to cite the actual evidence and line of reasoning here, and repeatedly you have refused. Simply saying this does not make it true.

Highsec PVP once filled this niche, and did so better than an arena ever could. It could and should do so again.

There’s not a lot of substance to engage with here, unfortunately. It’s clear that you have no experience with highsec PVP, little respect for those who have, and I doubt you have a clear grasp of the design issues at hand.

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The fact that none of them have come here to express this dislike should speak volumes.

Highsec is not an area that is conducive to PvP. The rules are so strict that it makes it extremely difficult to engage in outside of duels and war decs. Thus, most players who want to get involved in PvP go elsewhere to do it. There’s nothing wrong with that, and there’s no reason to fight against the existing design.

The evidence is self evident - go look at the DAU for the last couple years. https://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

I’ve only refused when I can’t provide the information requested because of the NDA. Now, unless you can correlate some specific change to highsec with what happened between 2014 and 2016, I don’t know how you can argue that it was changes to highsec that lost us so many players.

I’ve been playing this game for 14 years and I do not ever remember “highsec PVP” being something I jump in a do for fifteen minutes at a time. But sure - pretend you know more about the game than I do for reasons.

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You are CSM along with Mike. And representing us. If you would like to present your own opinions you might choose to go more laid back and avoid to use weight of your name and share your opinions like we do incognito. Not only him but lot of other players also reacted this . You cannot deny that . when you enter an area where opposite ideas are challenging … worst thing to do for a allover representative is showing his hand… Reason is no matter which side you hold … other side will think that you are taking a side … this is politically and strategically both ways bad for your position… therefor you pulled lot of reaction and unfortunately very a few agree with you in this platform… And those people are not capable to reason why they are agree even … also totally agree and that was my point so im am quoting from @alterus and sign under it :

we are not kind of people who accept like if it rhymes then its true… if CSM and afew enough repeat it without reasoning …we accept it ??? no way ! Reason it please .

                     RESPECT to RED versus BLUE 

This shows that you have zero knowledge about the legend of Red Federation and Blue Republic Eternal War and the Tea Pot…

2 corporation 1 BIG Community over a decade legacy ! True example of sandbox pvp
1 Eternal War in high sec … over 1.200.000 registered killmails!
Even though they find their end in legacy 2 years ago… by these kind of lined, shaped , releases of CCP… they are still on all time top corporations of NEW EDEN

just random pick for you …

I have grow into PVP in this tradition… I did learn PVP in this tradition as well as some of todays some of the BEST coming from HIGH SEC PVP .

Do you know why HIGH SEC is HARCORE ?
Let me explain… there is no gate guns no concord intervention… In Eternal War… high sec low sec and null sec equally dangerous . when you undock … no gate gun there is no concord to defend you there is no momys legs to hide behind ! and you are living your enemys next door everyday ! and there is no security anywhere!..

Do you know why this kind of instances cant create community ? let me give you an example .

when i join RvB first time … i did undock and got killed instantly …
by Red Federations top tier 2 pilots
a theory crafter AT pilots…
maan Fricking i had just undocked and got killed by an AT pilot !
after that i begin to die like mosquito hundreds of times …
But those pilots who is killing me… they also trained me … teach me everything i know…
Be closest to me over years more then everybody…

this must be tell you how much we are tied together through one concept … so do not underestimate… and even not dare to compare with this incoming event … We are all over New Eden Now … coming from that tradition
Community is there still… one of New Edens oldest and Strongest Community. Even though we fight against each other we do also respect and honour our fights … and we become purple against Rest of the New Eden . they are beautifull people… and we have a word… once you are RvB you always RvB and im RvB … so …
now you know… your reckless words had judged in front of our Tea Pot

In Eternal War …You get bold … You grow balls… you have to learn to survive… and you have know how to hunt and thrive ! …you walk on your toes in high sec and all very new eden ready to be prey and ready to hunt

High sec PVP is most BADASS PvP you can ever imagine and living in ENDLESS WAR .

i sign under these words… also tried to give some information about concept and its power of create community … . Lots of respect @Alterus … i dont know you… but im very familiar spirit of yours :slight_smile: salute o7

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I’m not going to hide what I think because I’m on the CSM, sorry. I find it distasteful that there are people unwilling to put their actual in-game main character names on their opinions on the forums. I don’t like that, so I’m never going to do it.

I’m well aware of RvB and you’ll notice I said “outside of war decs,” for specifically this reason.

We have eternal war in nullsec too, bro.

Listen … I do know you have a right to present your opinions… and i do respect players here regardless who stands up with their name or not …
I do choose to stand up with my name …the reason i do tell that to you : when you hold side that cause reactions… and you cant defend and success even you have a right … this because you are holding side…and you cant make other side people believe that their voice heard there… no matter how much you claim other way around … this is not personal… this is just a human psychology .by doing that way you are hurting your credibility … you made and image like presentative of yourself and other side here … and this caused this thread fillled with lot of reaction messages instead of focusing on subject…

I had just present the fact… and results is this…

Additional information Red Versus Blue is War dec too its Mutual wardeck where sides doesnt have to pay and freedom to end it “whenever they want” .so you made wrong mention. doesnt reach the destination https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/360005659379-Mutual-War RvB concept

also POWER of Mutual War concept and MEDICIN of some of biggest issues of CCP read here … this concept also far better alternative to this current releases

https://www.eternalwar.org/items-8/Mutual-War-Concept

and null sec blue donut is lie. and null sec become safer than high sec is lie… and trillions of souce hoarded in null secc… also lie… … right right… this one big war wont be enough to melt what you guys hoarded over years …

:yawning_face:

Edit; thats more response than your posts are worth, it’s just a commercial now.

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Love your description having been taken out by PvP specialists in the past month hilarious…at least it will clear the path of Human pirates, for the miners for a short period of time…lol…was my thought. I was laughing as I read your comments Thank you.

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It won‘t as long as EvE outside arenas is a sandbox game. There are far better battle arena games out there, which don’t bother me with player markets and loss, if I’m for that style. The current approach however will piss off current sandbox players (funneling content away) and playground players (restrictions). Good job CCP.

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Your end of the world predations haven’t panned out so far…

EVE as originally designed was a PVP game in all areas of space. Highsec was once a place for PVP and has become less so. It was not always this way.

I will concede that Fozzie Sov may have done more damage to player retention than highsec aggression nerfs. I, however, am not an expert in nullsec mechanics and don’t want to draw unwarranted conclusions. It is clear, however, that the 2018 wardec nerfs preceded a massive drop in player counts.

How many of those fourteen years have you spent participating regularly in highsec PVP? According to your own published comments, it’s zero. Arrogance and ignorance in equal measure.

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I guess you won the point of the first retard believing that a “feature that will never impact your gameplay” can be a thing in a game like EvE.

Especially when the reasons why this can affect the gameplay of absolutely everyone are so obvious. Turn on your brain for a second before you try to be the cool kid of the thread.

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The level of delusion you have to be in to believe High-Sec PvP fills the short-session PvP niche.

High-Sec has been nerfed with intent because it was an area of space that was actively losing players, the very concept of a population cannibalizing itself and the game.

Again, I see the same pattern with the people defending open-world PvP, personal, isolated attachment to a system to which they are incapable of seeing any flaw at all. Weirdly enough, it’s as if the system was perfect, and you should worry about people who think what they are defending is perfect!

We all know that you are worried that people won’t put up with your playstyle because they will have a more fun, more practical, more healthy choice available to them right in the Abyss, and I do welcome the fact that you will find less targets and less fights!

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