Comets, Firetails, Hookbills, all dont run 70-90mil each. They also dont have 2 separate bonuses based on skills of two different factions. They have the best of both worlds without the drawbacks of either.
Navy ships like you listed, still have the issues of the other ships of their faction.
I like pirate ships. They are like the big horn ram. Sure, you might die trying to catch one. Complexes are as much an arena for them as a trap. Their deaths are often occasioned at the warp in or on the gate outside. Youâre taking a good thing away
What rookies need is content creators and buddies to fly with, not 1v1 fights. Someone to teach them dscan and how to setup their screen and hotkeys so they donât just use the mouse. You think itâs bad to die to a pirate frig? Try seeing one die to a t1 frigate when they think a navy/pirate ship is all they need. TBH, most of their negative experiences in lowsec are because of gate camps and getting lost.
They wonât be in asteros. Sisters are a pirate faction.
With the navy vessels, Iâd be fine either way with them. 20% of the Fed Navy Comet solo losses in lowsec in the past couple of days are to basic T1 ships. Plus they are more affordable and easily useable by rookies due to being bonused for a single faction and aquireable through the FW LP store.
You are right it is on par with T2 but the stats donât show the strength of a garmur which is most of the time itâs ability to go faster, point and hit people from far away. Yes there are brawl fits for garmurs but they are quite rarely used.
Big horn rams? LOL no⌠more like being using a T1 ship is akin to being a deer, being shot with a Tomahawk cruise missile.
Here is my last ship loss to a pirate ship.
And this is what got me⌠look at the price difference.
Now lets look at the ships BASE stats.
Gallente Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed
Minmatar Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff
Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage
50% bonus to warp speed and warp acceleration
460ms speed
37mw pg, 133tf CPU, 370GJ cap.
3/4/2 2t,1m
20m3 drone bay, 15mbit drone bandwidth.
590/590/520 S/A/Structure.
Now the Coercer
Amarr Destroyer bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed
10% reduction in Small Energy Turret activation cost
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range
255ms
85mw PG, 165tf CPU, 700GJ cap.
8/2/3 8t
0 drones
700/900/800 S/A/Structure
Still not even close. But I can deal with that fight a lot better than the fact that SAME ship can go into novice plexes and only 6 times the cost of my WHOLE ship with fittings. That Dramiel is more than any 3 of my T1 Cruiser fits combined.
So how is that Dramiel, or Garmur, or ANY âT1â pirate faction ship a NOVICE ship?
I donât understand how you can give base stats like that and think that a coercer is the best ship to hull tank. Just because a damage control gives you high hull resists, does it make hull tanking ANYTHING a great idea? You would have been better served with a web and more dps. A burst aerator instead of a collision accelerator. Navy multifrequency rather than JUST one set of t1 multifrequency ammo. Whereâs your Standard crystals if you run into a kiter? Did you overheat? Did you get the first shot off? Did you attempt to pull range or did you sit still? Did you have damage implants? DPS is ALWAYS going to be a step above a number of different high-grade implant sets.
Sure maybe you didnât know he was dual rep with a deadspace repairer and probably had Exile and Asklepians going. He had an advantage over you, but 2 frigates and a dessie, worth less than half his fit combined ended his run.
ps. We see these things in the higher complexes too. What is the difference? The name of the novice is the only thing wrong here.
This still looks like a load of people having a discussion on fitting and comparing the stats of ships that have completely different roles.
@Agent_5B If youâve been watching the Eve Fanfest stream, you would see theyâve already decided on the restriction to stabs. Itâs over.
The removal of WCs it will only make rabbit farmers change his tactics.
What FW needs is more content, more fights, more people in the plexes.
Killing an enemy should have better paidout, 200 lps for killing a 10m frigate is a joke.
The isk calculation on km based in local market are tipically under their cost in Jita.
Once the tier is high people switch to missions leaving the plexes free of pilots, who can potentially fight and offer content to others.
youâd understand if you tried to seek pvp in a site intended for pvp in FW zones
Fighting is not he only thing that complexes are for. They are unfortunately tied to the contested levels of the system, and there is only one way to bring contested levels down or to clear an objective out so an enemy doesnât take it. When you are on top of your game, it rewards basically peanuts for what amounts to hours of time spent, sometimes daily, which could have been invested into something else. Defensive plexing is an awful and unrewarding experience for defenders, but lucrative for farmers, who donât care about system control. Defensive plexing has to change. It does not incentivize pvp when it doesnât require you to do a single thing except sit there and cash out. Like mining, it only encourages afk play.
i donât have much opinions on anything other than these two things you mentioned:[quote=âOreb_Wing, post:276, topic:67249â]
Defensive plexing has to change. It does not incentivize pvp when it doesnât require you to do a single thing except sit there and cash out. Like mining, it only encourages afk play.
[/quote]
kinda for a keen soloer dplexing is an opportunity in the waiting. this opportunity does not force you to sacrifice oneâs desired gameplay style (namely kiting) to wait for someone to come and fight you. nor do you have to factor in NPC to your calculations of engage-disengage. people who kite are the hardest hit in the current system, with oplexing entirely ruining the use of light missiles entirely (which many caldari frigates work well with), forcing people to use scramkite range fits or drone fits. people who kite are the most often proponents of really small gang skirmishes, sometimes the biggest proponents of soloing entirely.
it is a right pain in the ass to know roughly what you expect to see a player in and know that you can fight them in a kitey but cannot run the site you are in without enough dps to kill the rat.
sure sitting still when dplexing is boring but there has to be a better way than relying on damage per second output - a way that treats each raceâs ships a bit more equitably would be nice! i donât want to have to jump in a Catalyst to fight for the Caldari State!
lol true
still works out okay for newbros. and alpha accounts can make wellll above what is usually possible. between low skill requirements ships like the VNI for null sec ratting and the ridiciously large relative income the current plexing system is that any alpha newbro can get in on with a little bit of attention to surrounds, one does wonder if CCP could be selling more subscriptions/plexes without these doors to easy peasy >70m an hr incomes wide open.
to be a little more constructive and less complainy, maybe a part of the puzzle needs to be the number of ships inside a site within that 30km âbubbleâ that automatically runs the timer in favour of the attacker/defender, but time remaining on site is broadcasted in local (or dare i say, those barely used constellation/region chats) or visible to anyone who clicks on the siteâs beacon or something to make up for lack of âpve experienceâ?
the complexes are there to attempt to facilitate peopleâs fight though. with ship types and stuff. its a reasonable platform in that aspect.
All good points. Maybe what is missing is system bonuses that make it worth while to dplex a home system, because at the moment it is really awful and unrewarding to keep a system under 20%
its kinda there already, right, with tier levels? idk much about how it works as i am not an industrialist; after all getting rid of people from your home system should be a maximum priority if you care about said home system and dplexing is really just reversing the gains an offence has made.
it is materially unrewarding but if you want to hold that system, that is the reward and the motivation in itself. dplexing sub-20% is almost a penalty for not defending properly in the first place.
I canât decide if you are too young (genuinely ignorant) to remember when oplexing in lml condors was a thing, or just want a buff to low risk LP generation.
Kiting, at the end of the day, is a risk mitigation strategy. Thatâs the whole reason why solo/ small gang is keen on it. Things not going your way? Gtfo. Thatâs fine from a pure PvP frame.
But your complaining that you canât get nice rewards (oplex) AND gtfo whenever you want.
Its almost like CCP anticipated your kind and intentionally decided to reward people for fitting shorter range (and therefore higher risk).
At the end of the day, as long as the rewards are both
FW is going to be a farmer haven.
Is there any corp out there in FW that can cover all time zones? Itâs just not possible to have someone always on hand and dedicated to JUST chasing plexers out of your home system.
As I see things. Current system bonuses do not reward PvP, except for the repair discount (which Citadels do better). And as I donât like dumping on anything without offering feedback, I would suggest the following remedies.
*75% reduced fuel cost for structures and station rent, with the opposite penalty for the rent and fuel of neutrals and opposing side.
*Each system under 10% contested provides a bonus point towards tier and an extra 5% to every other bonus.
*pvp kills statistics also give bonuses and penalties to tier, counting only ships worth more than 3mil on the loss mail.
*contested values of every system drops 2-3% on every downtime. Making it possible for pilots to defend AREAS of space if they actively patrol.
Also I would still prefer defensive plexing to not pay out at all with these kinds of changes, as it is a zero effort activity that can potentially pay out a ton for neglected systems. Something only a farmer could love.
at the end of the day it is a legitimate strategy in fighting. you are trading dps for range. you cannot shut off otherâs mwdâs, if you donât know how to deal with a kiter ur pretty bad and should reassess your pvp knowledge.
and one can run novices and smalls in garmur easy as right now as things stand. so this argument youâve presented broke on introduction of the garmur. and btw a slicer can run 2/4 sites easily also right now. which means a retri can not that iâve tried.
arty and rails can do 2/4 reasonably well. the only platform that really canât is light missiles.
i donât want to be restricted to scramkiting but really oplexers with a focus on system control are limited to blasters - its the only platform that can easily run 3/4 sites.
right now i have to literally get a blob of people to run kitey plex fleet. would you rather blobs? cause thats what currently happens, and there are more than enough people like me who donât care to scrounge up every possible LP. believe me, iâd rather not blobs.
to be realistic, i really donât think it is possible to come up with a system that will not have farming in fw to be honest. its not even about militias not being player controlled eitherâŚ
and if you are playing FW for system control believe me its not very lucrative - i know you said casual but there are plenty of non-casuals.
now, onto rewarding pvp
donât get me wrong, itâd be great to base system control off pvp. only thing is that means defence can literally be âdonât show upâ. of course if u r just talking about the rewards fine that could work; but its not impossible to see then some strategies like using neutral alts/mercs to fight and deny rewards to targets. iâd suggest increase lp payout for kills incentive to give cheaper ships/frigates some reasonable rewards as they are a mainstay in fw, and perhaps explore neutral kills also giving LP and no longer sec status penalties in WZ for neutral kills - keep that â â â â just to highsec - the area could be decreed a warzone(!) with civilian traffic prohibited by decree and therefore open game for a FW faction. but a system reliant on pvp for system progress can be limited by showing up slowly, or not showing up at all, unless the appropriate safeguards are in place.
mm⌠unless we think outside of the âsystemsâ system and start thinking total pvp (military gains/losses) in a constellation, with plexes allowing an attacker some control over ship types but enforcing their need to risk needing to deal with something big coming in. maybe pvp can effectively add a plex system control multiplier/penalty in favour of the side thats doing better in pvp (but thatâd mean you wouldnât get a bunch of frigs risking themselves for that shiny cruiser kill cause cruiser would probably take down a few of em), so that the system is still being taken if noone is there. because frankly that problem (nooneâs on, canât defend home) is impossible to deal with and can only serve to suppress startup groups if they canât do anything on their own. maybe there can also be a baseline system control reward/penalty to the capture rate of a system based on the upwell structures, rated on both quantity and quality, inside a system. that might incentivise even more bashing; so between that bashing and ihub bashing that could mean a lot of boring ass bashing, but it seems fair.
oh and maybe add notifications for ihubs being bashed to prevent sneaky â â â â , allow the side (any player from that side who is in an alliance) that takes an ihub to set a vulnerability timer like the sov ones and then reduce by less than 50% but more than 25% the overall ehp of ihub so the process is not painfully long even with dreads on field (relatively).
its a big wish list.
so true
oh yea? i guess it could work is a reasonable incentive. i would still count ships worth less than than 3m cause there are plenty of fits for that price that can run sites at less than 3m in value - probably a few at less than 1m total cost. gotta count all ships in pvp imo.
and i donât agree with automatic downtime system recovery because tbh thats really not fair for those who live in parts of the world like the asia-pacific where downtime is right in the middle of a good time to play eve. what a pain in the ass to be nearly ready to bash something and then you canât because downtime is going to add another half hour to an hour and a half based on the luck of the sites that spawn after downtime.
but to be honest. FW doesnât seem to have lore legitimacy anymore. it is mega fun, but perhaps something needs to replace it entirely and continue to encourage pvp interest in low⌠or the empires need to start fighting again 
maybe the trigs wanna fully get rid of concord for taking one of their ships. and without concord nothing holds empires back from long desired conflict ^^
highsec would be patrolled and secured by faction rats for once. might make a lot more sense.
maybe systems should be vulnerable at 96% A lot of people would like this 4% extra buffer on top of the hidden 2.1%.
Iâm afraid that would change sentry gun mechanics too much? Or just a zero sec loss? How would I tell who is the cloaky smart bombing ***hole?
yea this ^
idk bout you but i always hated sentry guns in low anyway.
tbh warp to gtac always is best way to tell, preferably one behind the gate 
, or send a scout in pod through first, or if using blingy pod use a travel frig with sub 2 sec align time and loads of passive tank. shieldss