Wow. I’m getting really popular with this one 
cool.
So this is an interesting piece of clarification.
one question for @CCP_Rattati. Does that imply that a core is needed to online the structure, but then can be removed?
For all the small HS industrialists doesn’t this sort of make your issue less painful? Yes you lose those 3 basic services, but in HS there is generally an NPC station nearby to handle those. And your industry would still run as normal. (edit, adding @Tau_Cabalander since you seem very well versed on HS industry).
Lol time to move my stuff over to the Triade stations in Iyen-Oursta.
Exactly. In that light one has to ask and probably answer “is there anything done right with these Upwell things” ? Why were Upwell structures developed by Team Game of Drones and later Team Five O in the first place ?
Here’s the March, 2015 devblog I finally managed to track down at original goals of structure changes. It’s a bit embarassing to read there: (second bullet under “Improvement Goals”: “We want structures to be as widely used as possible, by removing artificial barriers or mechanics that may be in the way. This has to stay within a reasonable risk versus reward scope, of course, and as such the most rewarding structures should always be vulnerable to attack.” We could say, there’s the basic flaw, a clear design choice that allowed structure spamming even in hisec systems.
And here’s the ominous warning sign: the advancing world of upwell structures published less than a year after release (which was April 27th, 2016): “Over 7800 different player corporations have at least one Upwell Structure in space right now.”
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I don’t think it’s fair to say this is true in all areas of space. There are plenty of places with structures that are not being used or are being underutilized that are still fueled and online. CCP seems pretty clear that they want there to be some added value to removing structures - used or not - and this provides the most assured payout when a structure goes.
I do agree that it’s likely to result in more conflict - people attacking structures for the payout. That appears to be part of the design goal.
Doesn’t it?
Today weather forecast for EvE Online:
Sh*tstorm.
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Depends on what your structure is there to do. If it’s just there for reprocessing sure. If you have a market no. A market without fitting services isn’t much of a market.
Why the emphasis on ‘individual’? Does Brisc lose credibility for not being a collective entity, somehow?
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I guess that is why i phrased the question specifically at industrialists, which seemed to be the most vocal Small corp responders.
I guess I don’t have a handle on how many tiny corps there are running regional market hubs out of citadels.
Sorry but that’s bull. It will be highly deflationary to the player economy once the original sink is in place. Fewer structures will be built in the future than in the past and fewer structures will be fueled. This will put pressure on mineral prices and fuel components and all of that pressure will be downward.
It appears the CSM hasn’t really thought this through either, at least through the lens of the small corps who are going to be the ones most affected by this change.
I guess you are right. And I guess CCP doesn’t either…but they likely will
Does that mean you do? Personally I’ve only ever bought items out of one citadel, that being TTT.
The bottom line is many small indy corps here complained that this will paint a big target on their back. This clarification would mean they can take the target off, and not lose their indy functionality, just the 3 basic services.
It’s not bull - it’s you agreeing with what I said: “the price of structures will still fluctuate.” I fully expect the price of structures will go down, because of supply and demand. Supply will stay the same, demand wil drop, so prices drop.
I think we are all still processing the information and taking in feedback. I also don’t think that it’s fair to claim that “small corps” are going to be the ones affected most by this change. It’s going to have a scaling impact on every group with structures.
It will paint a big target on their backs if they want to operate a market…which many do.
Can you give an example of a structure whose purpose does not include tethering, repairs, fitting, having shields, or having armor? What exactly would the ‘purpose’ of something that takes up to a week to online, and can be killed at any time, by anyone, with no warning, no timer, and no chance to shoot back, actually be?
Since, you know, you don’t get the shields, armor, timers, ability to defend itself, or fit any of the ‘useful’ modules like a mining laser, market, cloning, etc, until you put the core in.
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Who will build them in their own … oh wait … scratch that, it was also destroyed!
As an industrialist for over a decade now, and a builder of Upwell structures (I have BPO for: Fortizar 9-14, Astrahus 9-20, Raitaru 10-20, Athanor 9-20, etc.), I have zero expectation of an increase in demand. Rather, I expect a chilling effect on demand, as people realize the futility of Upwell structures after losing their own.
My 2 holding corps have already lost between them on the order of 15+ structures (I don’t even bother to keep tally anymore when they explode), the vast majority in hisec. I really can’t imagine how bad it must be for those with less ability to adsorb such losses, but even I have my limits.
Umm … they are already “hyper vulnerable trash” since they day they were released, and getting worse by the day. I take it you started at CCP after POS, and never did industry with them.
Do you honestly believe putting an 800 million ISK bounty on every Raitaru does not increase risk without adding any benefit nor reward, beyond basic services which they already had?
So you’d be okay if CCP cut your benefits package, but offered you an equivalent benefits package at increased cost to you? Seems like a good deal, right? Or perhaps you might find that objectionable?
With this change I’ll be decommissioning the last two remaining Raitaru I have (one public, one private because of stupid indices) once the current jobs complete. So much for increased structure demand, huh!
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I’d suggest you look up the word fluctuate. It doesn’t mean to move in only one direction but rather to move up and down. So the price will not fluctuate, it will drop.
Two points.
First, a good organization takes in information and processes feedback before announcing a major change not after.
Second, small corps are the ones who are going to get bashed. Yes, everyone will be affected by the initial sink but small corps are the ones that are going to be affected by the second order issues, both as industrialists (who sell to the market versus use for their own production) and as those who will not rebuild structures post bashing.
I suspect that neither CCP nor the CSM has any idea what it is like to run/play in a small corp. But keep defending the decision if you like. But please don’t pretend it’s actually been thought through.
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How exactly would CCP and the CSM be able to process the feedback from the community in threads like this before announcing the changes?
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Obviously that requires some clarification from @CCP_Rattati. It either implies this will only affect existing structures already online but never install a core, OR cores can be removed after the onlining process.
Gosh they could announce they were considering the change and solicit feedback…they could take a poll…they could engage people who run small corps and ask them their pov on the change privately…
Seems like there are a number of options
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