It was shut down for a time, but brought back. I wouldn’t take a guy with a name like that too seriously.
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I haven’t seen anyone advocating for the idea that Incursion Runners shouldn’t be allowed to make ISK.
well, i heard some guy in nullsec that doesnt like incursion runners is paying highsec suicide gankers to grief incursions… almost impossible to know but it might be the case.
well, lets be reasonable: “one guy probably doing X” isn’t really a strong argument for a game mechanics change. Especially when it is neither exploitive nor abusive to “pay someone to do X” (mainly “to pressure another groups income chain”) in this game, in fact it is done on many occasions, be it HighSec Wars, WH Evictions, even Sov-Wars or against Renting Empires on a larger scale.
Lets collect some hard facts:
- Incursion running is very well paying and extremely safe because the content has be “solved” in terms of numbers. If people don’t mess up badly, they simply cannot die in these sites any more.
- the HS-mechanics shield the runners from wardecs and CONCORD protects them from any other unwanted attacks.
- usually the last-resort options for other players to interfere is HS-ganking, done so against Miners, Abyssal-Runners or Bling-Marauders/T3/FactionBS in often highly expensive fits. But that is almost impossible against IncursionFleets because these require high buffer and the presence of a logistic wing already by design. You can’t gank them even remotely reliable and/or cost-efficient. Yes, people have tried it in the past but these occasions are rare and not viable on a larger scale or for a longer campaign, it’s simply too expensive and requires too many chars per gank.
So, the only options others have left to interfere with your activity is to just be faster than you are. To be precisely: being so fast that they take the major part of the cake and leaving you with little to none. That requires a high level of coordination, skill, preparation and activity. And now you want to remove that option as well by creating artificial time-limits in which you can bascially run that content almost undisturbable to “print ISK” in nearly absolute safety.
It is absolutely no wonder why many people are against this. Especially since those who would benefit the most from such a change are not poor noobs who are harassed but pretty rich mass multiboxers. And not all of those opposing this change are “ganker alts”. I have rarely ganked anyone in this game but I care for a balanced game design and currently HighSec Incursions aren’t really balanced in my opinion. While I don’t advocate to “nerf” them, I absolutely are opposed them being buffed even more.
In fact, what this entire discussion brings up is the question if there is even enough player interaction options for a content that pays this good. Thus the suggestion to flag everyone in these sites as suspect. It would solve the Incursion Communities problem entirely, since you could simply fight those who try to end the incursion early. You could form coalitions among those who are part of that “Agreement” to leave the Mothership site intact and team up against those who try to end it early. Solve your differences by gunfire. I wonder why someone would be against it?
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This has been suggested a few times, I don’t think anyone has actually said they wouldn’t want some mechanic like this, in fact a number of them wish they could actually shoot and engage the people ending the focus on day one. I have mentioned a few times I think a limited engagement type deal between opposing fleets in the mothership site would be fun and interesting. I think fleet based limited engagement would be better than random suspect flags. As the content should ideally be contained within the site itself. Perhaps prevent fleets smaller than 20-40 to not be able to take the gate, to effectively “third party” the site.
This is all true, incursions have long needed a balance pass in terms of isk generated, but it has seemed CCP in the past have not been interested or simply wanted to shrink it down in terms of spawns instead of touching the payouts or site mechanics. In highsec payouts are already 70% of what their full payout is in LS/NS, so it wouldn’t be a stretch to reduce it to 40-50% instead across the board for isk payouts.
There is already a mechanic in place called “Contesting” a site. The fleet that contributes the most damage gets the payout of the site. Why can’t people who are against these incursion runners simply form their own fleet and contest them in regular sites? Why is it that the fleet who puts the bare minimum fits together can scrape by and slowly complete the site that closes the focus. In other games this final boss raid style boss is meant to be incredibly difficult, but for incursions its possibly the easiest site of all of them.
Literally every PVE content in eve is abused by multiboxers, be it mission blitzing, abyssal filaments, wormhole anoms, nullsec anoms, poch fleets, it goes on. Homefront operations that were specifically made for newer pilots to learn and engage in a unique small group pve, was almost first week abused and scienced by multiboxers. Its a big facet of the game at this point. Anywhere newbros will benefit, you can guarantee there will be boxers, its nearly impossible to avoid. The sites would need to be meticulously balanced and changed to make them harder for big boxers from being as easily to run them.
In some areas yes, in other areas not really, each system type has 3 unique sites with their own intricacies. In HQs the TCRCs is the site that is hardest to run and the most dangerous, no large scale boxer are able to do them and rely on non boxed fleets to clear them because of the extra attention it requires. I feel this could be scaled to other sites to make them more difficult to box freely, and be more towards engaging the individual player.
I try and never assume, and I appreciate your response written with such care and credence. The people who have been causing incursion runners grief are known gankers so people might make assumptions without any basis in fact.
No ? Why would they ?
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The usual : multiplier = 1.63-trusec
1.0 : 0.63
0.5 : 1.13
0.0: 1.63
-0.5 : 2.13
-1.0 : 2.63
=> 0.5 is 53% of -0.5 . Applies to bounties and LP.
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You know that I’m right, and others who reading know it, but you all are part of the system now, you don’t know how to exist in the game without MULTI-BOX, like IRL addicts without drugs, CCP made you addicts, cleanse yourself, clean THE COMMUNITY !!!
‘obviously not healthy’
‘is aware of the issues surrounding this Incursion situation and is investigating’
It isn’t their goal to run regular sites, it is their goal to end the Incursion ASAP. Why should they be forced to run unwanted content do prevent cut your income chain instead of just aggressively targeting your income sources? Like it is done everywhere else? With Wardecs, MinerGanking, Harassing Renters with BlackOps etc… pp. Everywhere you can bring a groups income to a serious drop if you want that and it doesn’t mean you have to “outgrind” them in boring repetitive PvE stuff. Thats completely against the spirit of EVE.
Sounds efficient to me. Why do you use more expensive and complicated fits if they can do it in “bare minimum fits”? For increased convenience? For increased safety? Your choice, really.
Naaaah lets not mix up things here.
- Mission Blitzing is not multiboxed on a scale that matters. You need so specific fits for the right specific mission to actually blitz them that adding more ships simply doesn’t reduce your runtimes. Mission blitzing requires knowledge, preparation and focus and I am willing to bet the number of people multiboxing that is well in the low percents.
- Abyssals are also only multiboxed by a very very small part of the Runners. The overwhelming majority uses Cruser Size Ships, of which only one can enter the Site anyway. Well maybe they have a multiboxed scout outside to check for gankers but that isn’t exactly what we are calling “multiboxing the content”, right? The number of people who repeatedly grind ISK by tripleboxing frigs in the higher tiers can likely be counted on two hands.
- Nullsec, Poch, WH is all “open combat space”. Yes people are multiboxing there, but that means they put multiple times the ISK on the table to grab for any hunting group. Multibox 3 Marauders in a C5? Thats 15B gone if you get dropped. Same for people anywhere else out of HighSec. Incursion Multiboxers risk barely anything. They can’t be attacked, they cannot be ganked reasonably well and even if they mess up badly they barely lose a ship, maybe two, not their whole setup. So, while I personally would remove mass-multiboxing with passion, I certainly dislike mass-multiboxing under CONCORDs protection in Highsec while farming large amounts of ISK the most. That doesn’t only go for Incursion runners, but also Mass-Iceminers for example.
I really don’t want to “hurt” any playstile or activity just for the sake or hurting it and I really wish CCP would revisit all this content, but I fear we won’t see major changes soon. I would be glad if I am in error here.
Publishing private discussion is forbidden. Please crop that picture to remove top and bottom mention of the person.
yeah, that’s the definition of griefing.
No.
You are so wrong it hurts.
{citation required}
Thats maybe your definition. It’s within the game rules (confirmed multiple times) and thus perfectly legit gameplay. Claiming otherwise just shows your bias.
citation required
Not really. If you would actually play the game instead of spinning a Freighter in Jita and complaining about gankers, you would see thousands of Abyssal Traces all around EVE and the ships popping out of them. (Well, you would need to use the Dscan sometimes, maybe try it out!). Its 90% solo cruisers. Easily. Barely Frigs, some Jackdaws. Some cracknerds really triplebox Frigs in there, but those are not even significant compared to the total number of Abyssal run. Talking about HighTier of course, nobody cares for the 1-4 rubbish.
No, this is the definition of griefing.
Pretending that griefing is not one when it’s not forbidden does, actually, show your bias. Because that’s not the definition.
Not really. You are the one making stupid claims. You are the one pretending that you don’t gain anything from getting the anomic from 3 agents in same system then running all the missions with 5 alts.
How do you translate “you see thousand of abyssal traces that you assume cruisers” into “most traces are cruiser” ?
yet 3 frigates doing 4 have same income as one cruiser doing 5 …
Talks a lot about your bias.
At least now your source is “what you want to see”. Nice. If your opinion on incursions is as well formed I guess we can ignore all your interactions on that topic.
If that first part was sarcasm it went over my head, the first two lines are mixed between several different instances of content in varied space. For the second part I was speaking specifically the site payout difference between ns/ls and hs incursions, where hs is 0.7 of the ns/ls payouts in isk and LP.
May I introduce you to the ishtar spinning empire of the drone lands? lol
I think the sentiment here is not so much the boxing, but the boxing in highsec to such a scale, to which I can agree. Being a multiboxer myself, maybe not to a 40 man dominix/praxis fleet, but still. The main problem is there is often not enough pilots to fill fleets, although it can happen here and there, to where the box pilots run by themselves. Most of the smaller sites are run by megaboxers running solo. I want to say maybe 6 or so years ago, all these sites would be packed and there would be not nearly as many boxing going on, but then the playerbase took a huge dip.
The first one was not sarcasm : on what basis can you affirm that incursions income should be nerfed.
Note that I have no opinion on that topic. Maybe they should ; maybe they should not.
When I did them, they were more on the MEH side of the income.
The second one I was also speaking the same : instead of a threshold system, use a trusec-multiplier, like it is done for missions. With that change, .5 would be 53% instead of 70% of the -.5 .
For a snowflake, even the sunlight is griefing. By your definition any unwanted aggression against another player, be it via combat ships or any other gameplay mechanic would be “griefing” because it “hurts his feelings”. Thats, simply put, idiotic in a PvP game.
I don’t pretend you don’t gain anything. I say most people don’t do it that way because usualy it isn’t worth the effort because specialized anti-burner ships do the mission very quickly already and the time saved by doing them with 5 alts is not that great compared to the travel time. Which I can pretty well observe, having multiple Agent-Bases for Burners and basically everyone doing burners there is doing it with one specialized ship. There may be some cracks 5boxing them somewhere, but those are an absolute miniscule minority in the greater scheme of things. And besides that, I havent even specifically said “burner missions” but “mission blitzing” which includes regular L4s blitzed with specialized ships to travel fast and only shoot certain triggers. Since you only get one payout, the benefit of doing them with 5 alts is laughable compared to the effort since you only safe a few seconds per mission at best compared to doing them solo in the right ship.
I don’t “assume” them to be cruisers, I see those guys popping out of there. Sometimes even seeing them after having bookmarked the trace for a later ambush. You know, as some who actually plays the pew pew game I check my environment and I want to know who is active there and what he is doing. Thats why I either target-Dscan the trace until I know what is in there or combatprobe it and watch what is exiting. No worries, you couldn’t know that. Stalking others probably is already griefing too in your book.
It just shows that you have barely any idea about Abyssalrunning. C5 is completely solved and perfectly safe for a Cruiser with the right fit. Nobody in his sane mind tripleboxes frigs in T4 which is exorbitant more stressful than just going into a C5 and doing retty chill solo run for the same money. I don’t doubt that there are people doing it, but I am willing to bet my ass they are the definition of “minority”.
I mean, just as a rough hint, check the Abyssaltracker: There are ~5500 reported Frig-Runs for T4 (of which we don’t even know how much were multiboxed and how much were 3 legit amateurs who teamed up) vs. almost 60.000 reported Cruiser Runs in T5 (of which we know 100% were done solo). And we can safely assume that the Stats in the Abyssaltracker are even biased towards Boxers, because those are more likely the cracknerds using such tools, while large parts of the casual solorunners don’t even use it. So I guess I am pretty spot on saying that tripleboxing Frigrunners are a completely insignificant sidenote within the whole abyssal content scenario.
That is the most based first sentence I’ve ever read.
But EVE is not solely a pvp game, its an mmorpg sandbox, you choose what you do in it. Some people don’t enjoy pvp content, others obviously do. No one is forced to partake in those PVE activities, same as no one is forced to go out and do PVP. There is always danger of pvp no matter where you go, but people mitigate it and live where they see their preferred amount/flavor of it.
There is a huge difference in the people who go out and do pvp, ‘consensual’ or not, by their attitude. You dunk on some noob in jspace you can either give a helping hand or farm tears from them. You pick a fight with someone in lowsec and duke it out, one says gc, the other calls them a slur. Its not that cut and dry, it depends on player interaction.
Well if you do that to hurt the feelings then yes those are griefing. Because that’s the definition.
If you would not do that activity if it did not hurt someone, then you are, by definition, a griever.
Snowflakes has nothing to do here.
And this requires citation
Just because that’s what you observe does not allow you to claim that’s what “most people” do.
I know for a fact that some people do them with 5 alts and with generic fits that actually allow them to reduce the travel time.
They are not “some crack”, it’s actually way more interesting that way, precisely because you avoid the travel times, refit times, and you can nuke someone on the road if they want to play.
And at this rate normal mission blitzing is worthless.
Why the f do you think guristas LP tanks at 1.2k, and mordus at 1.6k, while other corporations in HS are 1.4k ?
Yes, because the effort to set up individual runners is “laughable” compared to the benefit of multiboxing them together.
You assume they are all cruisers.
If there are 1000s per day you can’t check them all.
Nobody does that. The Anti-Incursioneers are doing it to cut off the Incursioneers ISK flow. Perfectly legit ingame reason.
Yeah of course, just wait a second, I’ll grab you internal CCP serverlogs, approved by Hilmar and the Icelandic Government. Not that there would be ANY doubt left for your little autistic Monk on the shoulder.
Ok, lets be serious: No, it doesn’t. Because you can just fly around with open eyes. You NEVER see 4-5er Fleets of Assaultfrigs or Factionfrigs warping in sync dock and undocking from missionrunner stations. Because that would exactly what one would see IF many people would do that. But you can’t observe that anywhere on a larger scale. In no space I ever do mission (and I do that quite a lot) I have EVER seen those frig-massboxers to multiblitz burners. Not on grid, not on Dscan. What you can see every day is the lone Nergal, Daredevil or Garmur undocking, warping and coming back after a few minutes. THAT is what solo-burner missionrunning looks like and you can see it everywhere. Even to suggest that this is all just “personal observation but in reality a huge part of the player is doing it your way that you can just never see” is, simply put, ■■■■■■■■.
Are they? Sorry I don’t care for such bad deals. LPs should never be sold below 2.2k ISK.
I don’t need to. Like I don’t need to drink all the milk on the planet to know that there is much milk in many boxes all around the world. When I observe X traces and their runners over many many months (if not years) in many many different systems and 90%+ of the runners are cruisers, it’s pretty much a safe bet that this observations reflects the reality pretty well. There is not a single hint that more than a niche fraction of them are run in tripleboxed frigs by some multiboxer. And I know why that is, because I have done that and it is pretty stressful and even while it returns more money, Cruiserruns are simpler, more convenient, require almost no logistic (yes, Frigruns do because you will lose setups you need to replace constantly), and still pay pretty well.