Remember the "dedicated balance team" ccp promised last summer? CSM member reveals ccp ***canned it

[Nana_Skalski]

@Shallanna_Yassavi

You have to bring a ship big enough to run them (I fly cheap, so usually tech 1 BC/BS for me).

Its all about the site. If it can be run by something better than tech 1 cruiser, maybe just a pirate cruiser with cloak, why not? People stock many ships in the mission hubs. As for low sec, warping even 15 gates to a low is not such a big deal for me in a cruiser. If I get escalation, i run them usually just after receiving, in the same ship that is a cloaky one. 6/10 or even 7/10 i run them. But I think they should be abit easier than lvl 5/10, and should also happen in high, only sporadically.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

@Nana_Skalski

Only current epic arcs are not escalations you could get randomly, to random places, with random rewards, and you can run them only every 3 months. I just wanted to blur the lines between exploration and missioning to a degree. As someone who have done both, i think it would be a nice mix to add some flavor to missioning.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned adding this which is like a mix of what you’re saying.

@DeMichael_Crimson

Now if I remember correctly the old Astrometric Agents would offer a variety of missions from encounters to hacking cans in static Cosmos sites.

For new missions how about adding Exploration Agents that offer missions to scan down various stuff, like scan down a specific W-hole, find and repair a crippled ship or drop off supplies to a Colony within that W-hole and then report back to Agent. Or scan down an object a few systems over and retrieve some Data Reports. The possibilities are endless without turning it into a corp fleet operation against an overpowered NPC AI.

Could even have missions that are ‘Seek and Secure’ types similar to your idea for mission escalation but more like an Easter Egg Hunt. Agent sends players to a specific location that’s a starting point where there’s a bunch of Hacking cans. Agent informs the player there’s an item in a can that will lead them to another location with more Hacking cans where another item is held listing another location, etc, etc.

So the player is looking for an item that lists a location, however what the player doesn’t know is that more than one can has an item location and each one is different. Eventually the Hunt brings the player back to the Agent. The length of the mission depends on which cans are opened. The item locations in the Hacking cans are randomly mixed up so each time the actual mission is run, it can’t be recorded into a min/max blitz guide / mission report.

Adding Exploration Agents that offer missions could open up a lot of possibilities.

[Nana_Skalski]

Yes, possibilities to make missions slightly different and interesting are there even without making AI more hard to defeat. Strong boss character can be usefull in few missions tho. I remember defeating my first battleship that was very hard to kill in a mission and it was a named NPC with a bigger bounty. I would say it felt epic, tho on a smaller scale than defeating some player. Also NPCs like that could escape when someone would not use disruptor for holding them, leading to a different escalation where the boss would be even tankier or having more DPS but also better loot would drop.

Could be few missions that are the ‘exploration’ missions, the escalation options and coordinates could be received from two cans that could be hacked, one easier for low sec site possibility, and harder for high sec site possibility, with the not hacked blowing up. Escalations could have one site only, maybe two for a mission chain. The final site being full of cans and enemies who could warp with failed hacks, alarmed.

Possibilities are endless. But who would appreciate it in CCP? For adoption by playerbase, I think it would be gladly received, maybe could also serve as something expanding the possibilities for growth past alpha skills. For rewards, it could be ISK, LP for a corporation, faction loot, faction blueprints, faction ammo, faction implants sometimes, everything from the LP store of a pirate lp store or stolen empire faction loot from blown up stations or secured pirate cans needing hacking.

If CCP dont have mission editor even now, its lamentable.

[DeMichael_Crimson]

Yeah, I agree, could even have some of the item locations from the cans lead into a sorta Deadend where the player warps into a large Rat Pack. With missions like that, player could try to complete it solo or quickly fleet up with a friend or two.

Yeah, the possibilities are endless.

[Yiole_Gionglao]

This is to a “HS vs NS” thread. It’s about “CCP is wrong to backburn A to favor B because they’re losing more with A than they can earn with B”.

CCP made a terrible mistake the moment when they comitted to a development plan around multiplayer, PvP and non-highsec (MPN) content whereas their customer base was largely solo, PvE and highsec (SEH). Because players are not becoming MPN fast enough to recoup from the loss of SEH players.

And guess who loses more in the deal? Multi-PvP-nohigh, MPNs, which need A LOT more development resources than they can pay on their own. Why there’s no dedicated balance team? Because there’s no money. Why there’s no money? Because CCP lost the money being paid by the solo, PvE, highsec SEH people they decided to backburn in 2013.

You want less lag, more iteration, faster shiny? Make sure that those fools staying in high leveling up their Ravens and rescuing the Damsel 15 hours a week have a good reason to keep paying. And ask CCP why exactly that people keeps bitching around and leaving the game no matter how much reused MPN garbage CCP feeds to them.

[Chan_aar]

@Yiole_Gionglao

Why there’s no money? Because CCP lost the money being paid by the solo, PvE, highsec SEH people they decided to backburn in 2013.

/thread right there.

If we can see this, why can’t the people at CCP?

[Nana_Skalski]

@Chan_aar

If we can see this, why can’t the people at CCP?

There was this idea among players that they will entertain themselves forever in the sandbox, hunting and being hunted. Or shifting the roles. Dynamics of PvP. Maybe CCP holds that idea in high esteem.

Untill there isnt enough of those who could be hunted or it takes too long to find a target. By blueballing or not enough of new players starting their steps in PvP.

Nevertheless, entertaining, unusual killmails still happen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/7qzygg/chremoas_dies_to_an_algos_in_lowsec/
Chremoas kill by a relatively new player from Japan.

[Zircon_Dasher]

@Yiole_Gionglao

Why there’s no dedicated balance team? Because there’s no money. Why there’s no money? Because CCP lost the money being paid by the solo, PvE, highsec SEH people they decided to backburn in 2013.

Last I saw (2016 number) there was plenty of money. More money than your highly regarded pre-2013 years. Google search CCP financial statement.

There is also a dedicated balance team. They were just given budget Jiin finds unacceptable. The balance team devs also get tasked with other duties. Thats fine.

[Arrendis]

@Yiole_Gionglao

Why there’s no dedicated balance team? Because there’s no money. Why there’s no money? Because CCP lost the money being paid by the solo, PvE, highsec SEH people they decided to backburn in 2013.

This is an assumption not actually supported by the evidence. There’s no money for EVE? Valkyrie. Gunjack. Gunjack II. Sparc. What paid for those?

EVE.

Yes, people like to point to the recent closings as evidence that CCP’s in bad shape, financially. Again, there’s no real information to base that on. Here’s an alternative read:

VR’s not returning on the investment CCP made into it, so they shed the Newcastle Studio. Lamentable as it was, it made sense to finally shut down Atlanta at the same time. Gunjack did make money, and Lo! Shanghai (where the mobile development team is) is still open. The Iceland personnel reduction was to give CCP a leaner footprint and boost stock value.

Am I saying that’s what went on? Nope. There’s a bunch of speculation floating around out there about the layoffs, and none of us have the accurate information. To just up and assume CCP’s got no money is just as fallacious a move as assuming that because we haven’t gotten a public appearance by Hilmar in the last 2 months, he’s laying dead in Fozzie’s basement (I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IS DEAD IN FOZZIE’S BASEMENT).

We simply don’t know. We don’t have those numbers. CCP’s finances aren’t public anymore.

That said… yes, CCP would be well-advised to build content for casual players. Just remember this: There is no content you can build for a casual player that the more focused players who invest more time cannot exploit better.

This is the exact same problem CCP runs into when trying to build for small groups. Build for small groups, the large groups benefit more. Build for players with a small amount of time, players with more time will get more out of it. No matter what they do, it will appear to be better for the larger, more organized groups who collectively spend more time on things.

Even if they introduce arbitrary or external controls to the number of people who can work together on something, that just means the big groups will split into smaller groups while doing that thing and still do that thing more often and more successfully (because they’ll have more minds theorycrafting and math-hammering that content). If they introduce a time limiter like ‘this is a daily, you can only do it once a day’, that just means the larger groups can still math-hammer it out so their guys can do that thing quickly, get the benefits, and go back to doing other stuff.

CCP needs to build up the options for folks with less time available, yes. But the players need to recognize that when they do, we are going to benefit, too. And we’re gonna benefit more. That’s the nature of the beast when it comes to organized groups of humans. Be ready for that. When (not if) it plays out like that, accept that there’s nothing any of us can do to level the playing field, not really. Just gotta roll with it, just like CCP does.

[Arrendis]

@Zircon_Dasher

There is also a dedicated balance team. [. . .] The balance team devs also get tasked with other duties. Thats fine.

Psst. A ‘Dedicated balance team’ means a team that is tasked solely with game balance.

ded·i·cat·ed
ˈdedəˌkādəd/Submit
adjective
(of a person) devoted to a task or purpose; having single-minded loyalty or integrity.
“a team of dedicated doctors”
synonyms: committed, devoted, staunch, firm, steadfast, resolute, unwavering, loyal, faithful, true, dyed-in-the-wool; More
(of a thing) exclusively allocated to or intended for a particular service or purpose.
“investing in dedicated bike lanes will encourage more bicycle commuters”
synonyms: exclusive, custom built, customized
“data is accessed by a dedicated machine”

Note the usages. Unless you’re saying the rest of CCP’s devs aren’t dedicated in the ‘dedicated professionals’ sense, then the only reason to use the term would be in the ‘exclusive allocation’ sense.

Which this ain’t.

[Zircon_Dasher]

My dedicated team of doctors are not precluded from doctoring others or doing non-doctor things. it just means that when I need doctoring, they are the team that do it.

Given that sometimes I have to go get tests, there will be times that a dedicated (in the exclusive and narrow sense your squawking about) team would have their thumbs up there butt. Which is fine if you are not running a business, but most businesses value productivity.

[Mayhaw_Morgan]

@Arrendis

Build for small groups, the large groups benefit more.

There are large groups BECAUSE it takes a larger group to accomplish a task. If you reduce the number of players necessary to accomplish any given task, then naturally, smaller groups will form to take on the same task and larger groups will be free to split up when their unifying purpose no longer requires so many of them to cooperate.
You don’t see 30 man fleets doing AFK mining or mission running in high sec because it doesn’t take that many.
You see 30 man (or however many participants) fleets running Incursions because that’s what it takes to do them. If you could run Incursions in a 5 man fleet (and it was worth doing), that’s how large a group you would see doing them. If Goonswarm could hold Delve with a 100 dudes, that’s what you would see.

And, who cares if large groups benefit? Good for them!

[Corraidhin_Farsaidh]

@Arrendis

because we haven’t gotten a public appearance by Hilmar in the last 2 months, he’s laying dead in Fozzie’s basement (I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IS DEAD IN FOZZIE’S BASEMENT).

Perhaps someone should bait Fozzie with some Hilmar sized clothes and see if he goes all Chloe on us…

[Nana_Skalski]

What? Hilmar too? Seagull then Hilmar. What kind of parties they are having in iceland? I heard about alcohol fuelled, shirtless dancing parties ending in women dragging men to bedroom. Maybe they all forgot how to be a spaceships loving nerd?

All is lost then

[Drago_Shouna]

@Nana_Skalski

Maybe they all forgot how to be a spaceships loving nerd?

I don’t think a single person at the top of CCP gives a damn about the players, or to a smaller extent, the game itself other than it brings the cash in.

For example…At fanfest 2016 there were lots of us in a queue at the airport returning to the UK. Hilmar was sat facing us 10m away and not once acknowledged a line of EVE nerds all clutching EVE loot bags.

After 5/10 mins he just got up and walked away, to my mind that said all that needed to be said about his attitude to the players/game.

[Arrendis]

@Mayhaw_Morgan

There are large groups BECAUSE it takes a larger group to accomplish a task.

No, there are large groups because larger groups accomplish a task better and faster, and because there’s competition. If I can do something with 30 guys, and you can do something with 30 guys, and I bring 45 guys, then I can probably do my thing faster and beat you to the next one. Also, if Goonswarm could hold Delve with 100 dudes, you’d see 36,000 Goons because holy crap, if 100 dudes can hold Delve, 36,000 dudes can hold it SO MUCH BETTER.

[Mayhaw_Morgan]

@Arrendis

there are large groups because larger groups accomplish a task better and faster

Do you have an example? Just one? From EVE?

@Arrendis

there’s competition.

For veldspar? For . . . missions? For what?

@Arrendis

If I can do something with 30 guys, and you can do something with 30 guys, and I bring 45 guys, then I can probably do my thing faster and beat you to the next one.

So why not bring 10,000? The more the merrier. You seem to be under the illusion that there is no downside to being in a group.

@Arrendis

36,000 dudes can hold it SO MUCH BETTER.

But . . . it takes less than 36,000 people NOW. So, if your theory holds true, why don’t we see 36,000 Goons in Delve, or a million?

Your narrative is contrary to commonly understood and accepted economic and business theory. When you remove barriers to entry, you get more, better competition. When you erect barriers to entry, you get bloated, inefficient organizations that are slower and less efficient.

You don’t see 100 guys building a house or 50 store clerks running a store or . . . 10 legs on a horse.

[Nana_Skalski]

Some things are not shared because of greed. The 40 player party flying many jumps for escalation to get what? For one player it could be enough loot, but why he would like to share it between 40 when he could do that himself in half an hour or even one hour and taking everything for himself? Rare occasions for sudden riches should be exploited. Play on greed, so EVE like…

Rare, not abundant, not farmable. More missions you get, less chance you would have to get escalation. Good for short timed sessions, bad for farming parties.

[Arrendis]

@Mayhaw_Morgan

Do you have an example? Just one? From EVE?

Sure. You’re a solo miner. You login to go to the belts. OH LOOK, a 30-character fleet of hulks and orcas beat you to it. All gone. All of the belts. For 8 jumps in every direction.

@Mayhaw_Morgan

For veldspar? For . . . missions? For what?

For everything. Because everything comes down to money. Who has it, who gets it, who makes the most of it how fast. Money’s how you build a better ship. Money’s how you buy in bulk with buy orders and get better prices over the course of a month rather than buying just what you need, when you need it. Every activity in EVE is ultimately PvP, because everything drives the PvP warfare, and every single bit of money out there is all inextricably tied together.

@Mayhaw_Morgan

So why not bring 10,000? The more the merrier. You seem to be under the illusion that there is no downside to being in a group.

Because it’s harder to organize 10,000. As someone who helps to organize 36,000, that’s the downside. Everything else is just scaling issues that the manpower lets you push on through.

@Mayhaw_Morgan

So, if your theory holds true, why don’t we see 36,000 Goons in Delve,

Did you think I just pulled that number out of no-where? No, you don’t see 100 guys building a house. You see 100 guys building 5 houses, and making 5x as much money. Because they can optimize their infrastructure (scheduling, trucks, materiels purchasing and delivery, etc) they reduce costs per worker, meaning improved profit per worker. This is why you see large construction companies that can tackle multiple projects at the same time.

Just to add in this:

@Mayhaw_Morgan

When you remove barriers to entry, you get more, better competition.

And the end result of competition without outside controls (ie: anti-trust laws, which are artificial constraints on how successful a business can be), is… monopoly. That competition slowly consolidates around the strongest competitors. City-States form nations. Nations form alliances and blocs. Don’t believe me? Ask J.P. Morgan or William Randolph Hearst. Ask Wal-Mart.

The ‘more, better competition’ phase is transitional, unless there’s outside influences working to keep breaking things up and force it to exist.

@Nana_Skalski

For one player it could be enough loot, but why he would like to share it between 40 when he could do that himself in half an hour or even one hour and taking everything for himself? Rare occasions for sudden riches should be exploited. Play on greed, so EVE like…

Rare, not abundant, not farmable. More missions you get, less chance you would have to get escalation. Good for short timed sessions, bad for farming parties.

Your one player, your solo player, is more likely to be the guy who doesn’t have a lot of time to spend on EVE. That means all that travel is time he’s wasting when he could be actually doing something. It means that he’s less likely to be the guy finding the rare opportunity; he just doesn’t have as much time to spend looking. Short timed sessions need to be able to get in, and go. The only ones who consistently have the time and manpower to scour the cluster for those rarer opportunities are the ‘farming parties’.

So who benefits more from them?

[Nana_Skalski]

@Arrendis

he just doesn’t have as much time to spend

Its to make someone spend more time, again greed vs time. Sometimes greed takes over. One hour more, 100 Mil ISK richer? Maybe?

And distribution is key, as I wrote, if somone doesnt get it early that day, then no point in farming missions. Taking them from lvl 4 agents, being also fairly hard for a new player, there is no ground to exploit it then.