So were learning skills but it didn’t make them a good addition to the game either.
It is a choice a care-bear would make. There are many care-bears in high-sec. No amount of talking will get them to give up their calculated safety.
If you tell them they can just fly into PvP with a cheap ship then, they will tell you “But what about my implants?”
If you tell them that they can just use a jump clone with no implants, they will tell you: “But what about my skill points?!”
If you want to get these ppl into PvP, you need to remove unnecessary hurdles. Learning implants are one of those. And in the end PvP is what makes this game a great game.
Again that’s your experience.
I don’t get people saying such things when I take them into low sec.
And who’s experience is now more valid?
Or could it be that we just know different ppl and both sides are valid?
Yes. This is exactly the case being made by me you numpty.
Not everyone is putting expensive implants in. Not everyone is afraid to lose expensive implants.
The people who are ruining the game for themselves by thinking they must have +5 implants are relatively few. You don’t need to remove learning implants. Just don’t be a numpty.
So with learning implants with have the following situation:
Some people don’t care about them and ignore them in one or the other way. Others care very much about them and won’t fly into PvP for one or the other reason.
Without learning implants we would have the following situation:
People that do not care about learning implants still don’t care about them.
People that previously cared no longer do, because they do no longer exist, so they can happily fly into PvP with carefully prepared ships not exceeding their budget.
Lesson learned: without learning implants everybody is happy.
Except the people who don’t mind going into fights with learning implants lose training time because of the whining of a few cowards.
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So the essential problem here is that the non-implant user or those that take the risk are angry that others might get something for free?
Maybe you haven’t seen my posting history. I’m a pretty big carebear myself. I don’t use alts, this is my main, I belive my killboard, or lack thereof, speaks volumes as to my ability to manage risk.
I have infact convinced fleets of miners to ship up and defend themselves in combat while I ran links for them. Not every carebear is a plush toy with no sharp edges.
I’m a much older player than that. I came for the RPG part of the MMORPG, long before they dropped the RPG off the packaging. I don’t care if people get into PvP or not, and would be perfectly happy if we returned to a more balanced vision of game development. I felt the immersive world it once had was what made it great. The opportunity to build space empires (which did involve PvP with a purpose) made the game great—but the point for me was never the PvP.
You won’t convince dedicated carebears to PvP in EVE no matter if you remove training implants or not. PvP in EVE sucks. It’s utterly binary, dominated by predatory assholes. This game has become a monument to trolling and griefing— just look at it’s press. I’ve read article after article singing the praises of “The biggest dick moves in all gaming history”… where EVE hits at least half the entries, and almost always takes the number one slot. That stuff is fun for your Type A personality douchebags, not your average (and far, far more numberous) carebear.
You are trying to turn the Chess and Drama clubs into the cheerleader raping football team.
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The essential problem here is that you don’t want to use implants. But rather than just unplug them, you have to force everyone else to lose them even though they’re perfectly fine with them.
You’re like a spoilt child that doesn’t want to play with a toy, but doesn’t want anyone else to play with it either.
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I want to give free unlimited toys to everyone, that’s the exact opposite of what you say.
In the end you’re still taking away their choice because you don’t want to choose. You want to have your cake and eat it too.
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It very much depends on where you PvP in Eve. If you join the big players you can expect the most mischievous and hateful combat people can come up with, other places are not that dark, however. In the last 0-sec corp I was in fair PvP was expected of all members at all times. That means: if the enemy brought a fleet of cruisers, you opposed with a fleet of cruisers, so everyone had fun. That also meant that we lost several times, but that was never an issue to anyone as long as all ppl had fun.
I remember that one fleet that came around heavily drunk because one of their corp members died in an accident. So we talked to them, put up a fleet that was as fair as we could make it given the short notice, and then went into battle to honor the memory of their deceased fleet leader. Or that time where the entire universe lightened up cynos in memory of Steve Hawkins. Not all of Eve is dark and evil.
The usual care-bear is not an unfair fighter, because he knows how painful it is to loose something. Getting these people in PvP will enrich the experience for everyone else, because it increases the chance to find actual fair and therefore fun combat.
The guy who gives away free cake to everyone is now evil, because he takes away the choice to buy it from everyone else. Ok… please excuse if I won’t answer your posts any further, that seems to be just a waste of time at this point.
Yes. In a game that is about meaningful choices and risk vs reward you are the brat with a sense of entitlement.
If you don’t want to use implants, don’t use them. It’s as simple as that. The benefits of +5 are very small compared to +3’s and +4’s. Maybe you can use +4’s in conjunction with injectors.
The people who are too afraid to risk implants will be too afraid to lose their ships as well. It still adds up to lost isk one way or another.
There is already a thread for the EXACT same topic…
Attributes make sense in actual Roleplaying games. Games where your “character” is flesh and blood, and your Intelligence or your Charisma are important because you’re a Wizard or a Bard and those stats have a major impact on your class abilities like Spellcasting or Musical Performance.
But Eve isn’t about flesh and blood characters. “We” aren’t the pilots, our “characters” are the ships we fly. The flesh and blood is nothing more than a paper doll we can dress up for our driver’s license photo, and a container to hold the Skills we train so we can equip “ourselves” with better armor and weapons.
And ever since they started doctoring on the way Skill Points are used, the idea of Attributes become even more meaningless. If you can Remap yourself for maximum Mining skill progress, and then use a Skill Extractor to suck those out and inject them into a completely different and opposing skillset, then what’s the point? If you can buy SP Injectors off the market, and Inject SP into a skillset that has nothing to do with your Attribute arrangement, then what’s the point?
If they want Attributes to have an effect, then they need to adjust how many SP you gain. Inject into something you’re Mapped for, you gain more. Inject into something you’re Mapped away from, you get less.
Or… leave Extraction and Injection just the way it is, and get rid of the useless Attributes nonsense. Just let people accrue SP at a static rate, and it gets spent on whatever you happen to have queued. You don’t need to do much of anything to most of the Implants. Leave people to use the Slaves or Snakes or whatever, but take away the “+2 to Charisma” nonsense. Yes, that means that the Implants which only serve to boost your Attributes will become useless collector’s items. But we’ve already got plenty of those, what’s one more?
You know what’s funny?
Even if they actually did eliminate attributes (for which there is very litte, if any, meaningful choice to be made) they could keep training implants as a straight +% skillpoints, even break it up into different slots for different catagories of skills to preserve the current layout.
Because at the end of the day, the implants represent a meaningful choice between what they do and whatever else you might put there, or even the choice to put nothing there to limit the risk of loss.
Something, like attributes, that everybody actually has is different. Simply declaring training implants as universally desireable and thus not representative of a meaningful choice is nonsense.
Install a Jump Clone. Problem solved.
With Infomorph Synchronizing 5 you only have to wait 19hrs (24-5) between clone jumps.
Your attribute implant clone(s) can remain safely docked while you’re away from the game then when you login you can jump to your PvP/Exploration clone (with cheaper/PvP implants) and enjoy playing without risking your most expensive clone(s).
I agree with you quite a bit, however, for this reason I have multiple clones to switch to each with different implant sets. Always switch to a clone with cheap arse implants when going out, then switch back again when I come back. But I do agree its a loss of skill points
On the side note, that almost makes me wish they brougth back the “learning” skill, but made it different. It would basically give you implants but without implants. For example lvl 3 would be equivalent to having lvl 3 implants, lvl 5 to lvl 5s, etc. And make them not stackable so you can not stack regular implants on top of that.
Or jsut convert all of these +attribute implants to something altogether different, like a minor version of snakes, asklepians, etc.
And during that 19 hours wait we still lose SPs, and it adds up. When I think about how often I do this, over the course of years and how many toons, that is a hell of a lot of SPs, all coming from that 19 hour wait.
Even if there was no wait, that’s still a huge loss, considering when I trip to WHs for example I tend to go for 2-3-4 days at a time.
If clone jumping was the solution this would not be an issue.