if this was a thing it would be happening now without the proposed suspect garbage
im curious, why dont ya spell them out.
Why? Explain how being able to mine the belt from an NPC Corp with no issues promotes growing a stronger Corp or alliance?
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These are not the same thing.
It’s not about making groups bigger it’s about making the choice mean something. Eve was built upon such design…and lets face it, became a much worse game when we started to adopt the ‘everyone gets a medal’ philosophy.
You can mine the ore but you go suspect.
Or
You can mine the ore but you have to join the alliance and be eligible to dec.
Or
You can mine regular belts.
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The ability to defend your assets should be a good reason to grow a stronger corp or alliance. This suggestion changes nothing into a positive direction that regard. In contrast, it makes it less appealing as it forces you to grow instead of just allowing you to do what you want to do with your group of people.
The choice already means a lot. You put an asset on the field that is worth billions and it takes a considerable amount of time to earn that money back. All that time you are susceptible to wars, to gank attacks, to diaimond NPCs pestering you. And you are susceptible to leechers who do not contribute to your effort, in contrast to those people that you gathered and want to work with.
Fine. In that case, however, not only those engaging in PVE should get to enjoy the departure from this bad philosophy. PVP people, especially those engaging in ganking should also have to commit more than just their ships, which are worthless ammo, and their security status, which has no meaningful consequences to this day.
This is the key bit you wrote, and the whole reason the suspect timer is needed.
Without it, they aren’t ‘your assets’. You have no investment.
With it, they actually are your investments.
And the whole point is to allow you to solve this by shooting the leechers.
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You haven’t thought this through. You would get mercilessly baited. You might shoot the “freeloaders” for the first week - but then you will realize that 90% of the leechers don’t care about mining - they just want to reship and gank you.
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And in the process you people who actually use the assets to collaborate properly are collateral damage. In best CCP development tradition. Good work.
Excuse me, what? I have invested anything from 800M to 4B on the field. I have invested my time to set this up and to keep it running. I have invested time to find people in the area that I want to work with and potentially even declared wars to get rid of people I do not need in my area. But certainly: No investment.
Nothing stops you collaborating in an alliance.
& sure, the structure might be yours, that’s nice. But if people don’t have to be in the alliance there is no investment from those people (for the most part, I’m sure you know the only exception to the rules and will wave that around like a giant flag of course).
And how do you declare war on people in non war dec corps again? Oh wait, you can’t.
Oh wait, there are also corps that have structures that you don’t want in your area. And I said nothing about removing every single soul from the area.
See above: Play as I want and not as you like. Great work.
Except for the willingness to help the guy/corp that provides them with an opportunity to mine something else than just normal belts. Exactly the emergent gameplay that people keep talking about and wave around like a giant flag.
Except one of us has actually backed up the points with logic, the other has spouted a bunch of rhetoric. Hint, your the second one.
Pointing at a single anecdote does not make for a good argument for keeping things as they are when we have so many examples of why the current state is bad instead.
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What logic? All I see is “Play as I want and not as you like”. Your lot wants to force people into alliances or single corps instead of allowing people to cooperate as they see fit. Your lot wants to blanket suspect flag anything that does not conform with your idea on how to play. Your lot wants to have easy prey instead of cooperating groups. Your logic is flawed, one-sided and reduce some aspects from EVE that used to be what made EVE great in order to amplify another single aspect out of proportion.
Then fix them. That Solstice guy even outright denied the better fix in his opening post: Acess Lists. Not only allow they for collaboration between groups, they also open up risk of screwing over people that “trust” you because you can remove access when you have prepared a nice trap. Again, emergent gameplay is suddenly not of great importance as long as it suits your narratives. 
Access lists specifically need to not be part of this for exactly what Soltice said. Otherwise you can hide all your miners risk free in an NPC corp and mine the ore literally while someone attacks the structure.
You also can’t trap people unless you’ve A: Conned them into changing their safety, or B: they are utter idiots in which in either case you could trap them a million other ways. Because a green safety would stop that happening and every miner I’ve ever known lives on a green safety.
Also, stop it with the ‘you lot’. Labelling anyone who disagrees with you as belonging to this ‘evil group’ as you are trying to frame the narrative is just silly.
Necessity of the English language because You can and will be misinterpreted as singular attack on someone. Happened to me several times. You even interpreted this phrase as hostility when it just means plural you.
And what’s the problem with that? It will be the last time they were able to mine on that structure as it will be removed shortly after. Forcing miners into the same corp does not fix any of that as the miners will just not show up at all. There is no additional incentive to defend a structure. All this creates is more hassle and people switching back to their own Non-Wardec corps or NPC corps and come back a week later if at all.
Look at this suggestion for the first part of your phrase. And as for the “million other ways”: They would all be obsoleted by this suggestion as the suspect flag takes care of that. Either by removing them from your pool of miners in the first place or by active Friendly Fire in the corp they had to join.
Thanks for this great post.
I will quote you in the initial one.
This is something I’ve pointed out in another thread,
but in the end is this just exaggeration of something natural.
Fact of the matter is that there are too many moons for this to have a significant impact,
plus people will grow stronger as a whole, keeping this in check … also naturally.
I was one of the first to bring it up,
but in the end it is not a decisive factor or relevant for the whole.
It is just part of how it works and balances itself out.
“Ganking/baiting is everywhere” is myth
which really only exists in the minds of those believing it,
which is mostly fearmongerers and haters.
I believe you’re not a part of that group.
To be fair, though, it will be more content for the current suspect baiting scene,
but that’d just mean that less mission runners are going to be facing them.
He has no good arguments.
He has arguments, sure, but they’re just no good.
Selfishness is oozing out of his posts, too.
When you boil it down, then he’s trying to speak for the solo afk miners who somehow “collaborate” while wanting to stay “independent”, as if it had any meaning in actual reality. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying it should be discouraged.
Reality is that solo afk miners, of which there still exist too many, are a cancer to the game and CCP agrees with that, otherwise they wouldn’t have invented NPCs shooting afk miners in belts. They wouldn’t have come up with a stupid idea of getting miners together and they wouldn’t be offering us dangerous mining sites which can’t really be mined solo.
Reality is that miners, grouping up, is beneficial to the game and CCP agrees with that,
thus miners - who want to mine moon ore - should be part of a corp or go suspect.
Whichultimately means that his counter-arguments are irrelevant …
… and we need to find better ones.
The structure owner is…and that’s the point!
The leechers aren’t. Where is their meaningful choice?
This whole section of your post has nothing to do with collaberation and everything to do with what I’m trying to argue for.
It already does.
Gankers use dedicated alts for ganking. Or they have to watch their backs for a month whilst they rat or mine.
Again, the whole point is gankers have to specifically modify their gameplay in order to continue to partake in ganking. It’s a meaningful choice.
Where is the comparative choice for miners without a structure?
It’s just not there is it? They get to have their cake and eat it too.
If players could not avoid war decs we wouldbt be having this discussion. But they can and many owners of these stations want some control over the minerals that can come from mining the moon as the structure and possible defense of said structure have a cost, and mining isnt the best income as is.
This thread is basically showing how flawed “highsec logic” is.
People build structures in highsec to avoid having to deal with lowseccers …
… and at the same time complain that they can’t do anything about random people.
The obvious solution would be “go to lowsec, you don’t have that problem there” …
… but it’s not really a solution, because it eventually leads to the question …
“Why can we build resources gathering structures in highsec in the first place,
when we can’t prevent people from taking the gathered stuff anyway?”.
So people turn Suspect when they take someone’s loot …
… but don’t turn Suspect when they take someone’s ore.
Boild down to the essentials, it’s actually inconsistent.
- You can protect stuff in your ship’s wreck when someone wants to steal it. (let’s ignore GCC)
- You can protect stuff in NPC ships you shot down.
- You can protect stuff you dropped into a jetcan.
- You can not protect stuff that’s coming from your structure.
I’ll add that to the initial post.
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This is a somewhat crazy conversation. Where do you stop? If someone puts a structure in a system with many belts - do they own the belts? No. It’s eve, it’s a struggle, it’s lawless to a point.
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