Response to New Eden Defence Fund

[Ange_des_Larmes]

Following the latest news report on the proposals for a New Eden Defence Fund, may I be the first to say that I am glad that CONCORD has, at long last, decided to take some form of action against the numerous threats to New Eden.

However, once, again, the revolutionary change they propose does not ensure the proactive protection of the populace of New Eden. Instead - like the ‘switching off’ of the fluid routers in null security space - it is yet another reactionary cash-grab aimed at protecting themselves.

I - and, I am sure, the rest of New Eden - would be interested to see the justification for such spending and what further services that the general populace need will be removed to fund them.

May I also add that, as the Triglavian threat seems to be focused on CONCORD, investing more money into fighting that threat will just escalate the violence further. Surely, the only true way of removing the Triglavian threat now is to disband CONCORD altogether?

If you agree with me that CONCORD should not be hindering our lives any further to benefit their own agenda, join me and many millions of others in peaceful protest on YC121.8.18 and tell CONCORD you’re not on-board!

[Zhalyd_Lyehin]

@Ange_des_Larmes

If you agree with me that CONCORD should not be hindering our lives any further to benefit their own agenda

There is a lot of lawless space available to competent capsuleers to follow their agenda. Last I heard, the Blackout that spread after fluid-router network capacity was reduced opened up a lot of unused space. CONCORD keeps empire space relative civil and save. If that safe-keeping “hinders someone’s life”, these people are free to leave empire space.

As it stands, though. I would wager that these “hindered people” would be even more “hindered in following their agenda” in those areas of space than in the safe cradle of empire space.

@Ange_des_Larmes

May I also add that, as the Triglavian threat seems to be focused on CONCORD

Curious to know what makes you think that. The currently established Invasions have not a single Concord related station in any of the systems. Previous Invasions follow a similar pattern of just taking place in random areas, just like Incursions by the Sansha. CONCORD is not more under pressure than empire navies from the Triglavians.

@Ange_des_Larmes

Surely, the only true way of removing the Triglavian threat now is to disband CONCORD altogether?

Interesting line of thought. Considering the general appeal to lawlessness and piracy that your groups indulges, it would very likely free up more CONCORD resources if they terminated your clone contracts and made you disappear altogether. That would allow these pitiful CONCORD officers and empire navy personnel to focus their attention on more rewarding targets like the Triglavians instead of wasting ammo and hard fought for tax payer money on worthless Catalysts. Surely you agree with that.

[Samira_Kernher]

I for one, would like to thank CONCORD for their service. I have my own disagreements with some of their policies, some very serious ones, but I very much do appreciate their part in fighting to repel the Triglavians, Drifters, and other rogue groups.

@Ange_des_Larmes

May I also add that, as the Triglavian threat seems to be focused on CONCORD, investing more money into fighting that threat will just escalate the violence further. Surely, the only true way of removing the Triglavian threat now is to disband CONCORD altogether?

They are attacking member nations and independent capsuleers too. Not just CONCORD.

[Utari_Onzo]

Engaging CODE members and fans with logic on their field of choice is asking for trouble. They will beat you down to their level and win on experience.

[Galm_Eskola-Fae]

Has there ever been an exercise more futile and pointless than security theater?

Look, not to be a contrarian, I’m actually glad CONCORD and AEGIS are finally getting off of their haunches and doing something about the currently-ongoing apocalypse. Granted, yes, it took a triglavian invasion, a summer’s worth of drifter offenses, null security space being thrown into disarray, and ever increasing Sansha raids and yes CONCORD and AEGIS are now only acting in a completely reactionary manner instead of being proactive about combating this threat-- But hey, at least they’re acknowledging that the strategy that I and many others very publicly stated wouldn’t work isn’t working.

However, given CONCORDS already ostensibly bottomless coffers and the support of four united empires that have each respectively barely succeeded in repelling these threats one would think “hey maybe putting more guns in the valley doesn’t really help when those guns are in incompetent hands.”

It’s not the scale of the DED or AEGIS’s mobilization that’s failing New Eden, they should by all accounts have more than enough resources to combat this threat. Its the strategies and leadership all the way up to the command level that’s failed. Maybe instead of pouring untold billions of ISK into further mobilization that will just go into lining Upwell’s pockets they should reassess how they’re combating these threats and reconsider what measures they are willing to take to defend New Eden.

The utter gall and hypocrisy that CONCORD and AEGIS would begin suddenly investing in mass cloning and “personality backup” technology disgusts me when there are independent warclones that have been out there fighting the good fight repelling these invasions out of the public eye since this crisis began. But is CONCORD offering to support these warclones? Empower them? Give them materials or amnesty in exchange for service?

No. Its a common rumor that the DED has long waged a secret campaign to undermine the independent warclone community, and we’re seeing the effects of that now. New Eden is under siege on all sides while the only soldiers capable and experienced enough to mount a suitable defense or counteroffensive are in exile across the cluster or forced into asylum in Avalon. Until CONCORD reassess its answer to the warclone question I don’t give a damn what measures CONCORD takes to build a new defense fund, New Eden is fighting with one arm tied behind its back.

[Arrendis]

@Galm_Eskola-Fae

a summer’s worth of drifter offenses

Can we please let this nonsense die already? The Drifters were active for all of 5 days over a week and a half. That’s it. CONCORD’s logistics issues in null are entirely because they’re having trouble keeping up in empire and they decided to use the Drifters as a completely unnecessary excuse. All they had to do was say ‘yeah, we’re cutting back to focus efforts on resupply in empire’ and everyone would’ve shrugged. I still think they should reduce the sov bill if they’re cutting services, though.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

CONCORD is not more under pressure than empire navies from the Triglavians.

@Samira_Kernher

They are attacking member nations and independent capsuleers too. Not just CONCORD.

May I quote from a recent Galactic Hour News Roundup?

In closing her remarks, the Provost Marshal noted that, in contrast to the relatively low casualty levels due to Triglavian assaults against orbital bodies, the combined number of dead and severely wounded due to Triglavian attacks in space is running into several millions, with CONCORD and core empire naval personnel suffering the bulk of those casualties.

The Triglavians are not attacking civilians - they are gathering information. They are attacking CONCORD. They are attacking capsuleers. But CONCORD are suffering the casualties?

Suggests to me that they are the ones being targeted, no?

@Zhalyd_Lyehin

Interesting line of thought. Considering the general appeal to lawlessness and piracy that your groups indulges, it would very likely free up more CONCORD resources if they terminated your clone contracts and made you disappear altogether. That would allow these pitiful CONCORD officers and empire navy personnel to focus their attention on more rewarding targets like the Triglavians instead of wasting ammo and hard fought for tax payer money on worthless Catalysts.

CONCORD have nigh-on limitless resources. They have the funding of 5 Empires plus all the sovereignty bills and sales taxes that capsuleers pay. Resources, unless they are completely incompetent are managing them, should not be an issue for a body such as CONCORD.

If CONCORD were bothered by us beyond the sales tax we generate through having to buy ships after each enforcement, they would pro-actively be policing the New Order. If CONCORD were bothered about the populace of New Eden, they would pro-actively be policing space.

What CONCORD are bothered by is money and the potential loss of it. That is why they are seeking this new ‘Fund’. The inherent corruption within CONCORD gets glossed over by capsuleers because of the propaganda they put out.

@Utari_Onzo

Engaging CODE members and fans with logic on their field of choice is asking for trouble. They will beat you down to their level and win on experience.

Perhaps we should start using critical thinking over insults? Maybe that way we will get worthwhile reform instead of feeding more money into a machine that doesn’t work.

@Galm_Eskola-Fae

It’s not the scale of the DED or AEGIS’s mobilization that’s failing New Eden, they should by all accounts have more than enough resources to combat this threat. Its the strategies and leadership all the way up to the command level that’s failed. Maybe instead of pouring untold billions of ISK into further mobilization that will just go into lining Upwell’s pockets they should reassess how they’re combating these threats and reconsider what measures they are willing to take to defend New Eden.

Hear, hear!

[Diana_Kim]

@Utari_Onzo

Engaging CODE members and fans with logic on their field of choice is asking for trouble. They will beat you down to their level and win on experience.

Mr. Onzo, I’ll politely disagree. Any argument that is based on logic will lead eventually to truth, it’s not about winning, it’s about finding truth.

And from all present parties I’d be more wary about engaging someone like Arrendis with logic, because she’ll just spam you with unrelated facts and the moment she will feel she loses grasp on it or won’t find argument against your logic - she will simply go into ad hominems, will try to discuss your person or will be making lies about you.

That’s a big nope from me.

As for CODE, let me show you.

@Ange_des_Larmes

May I also add that, as the Triglavian threat seems to be focused on CONCORD, investing more money into fighting that threat will just escalate the violence further. Surely, the only true way of removing the Triglavian threat now is to disband CONCORD altogether?

@Ange_des_Larmes,
I cannot agree with that, nor that Trglavians are focused on CONCORD. They do attack any capsule vessel in their vicinity even if it is unrelated to CONCORD. We can, of course, make an assumption that we all are part of CONCORD capsule program - so by claiming they attack CONCORD, would you agree to say that you are part of CONCORD as well?

You can check it yourself quite easily. Stay near any station in your ship during Triglavian invasion, make sure there are no other ships around you (for the experiment to be clean), and as soon as their fleet lands - they will attack you. You can even name your ship “NOT CONCORD”. You may even try to do that with triglavian letters (I am sure it’s not very hard to find that, someone was already writing sentences with them).

I know for sure they attacked me when I was just passing by, and I am not part of CONCORD - formally (other than being a member of CONCORD capsule program), my allegiance belongs to Caldari State.

And thus the option of disbanding CONCORD to remove Triglavian threat does look for me inconsistent. Maybe disbanding the public capsule program would have more effect?

But even with that, as far as I heard, Triglavians do attack baseline installations as well, not only capsuleers, and thus disbanding capsule program will only increase number of attacks on civilians.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

@Diana_Kim

I cannot agree with that, nor that Trglavians are focused on CONCORD

Once again, in their own words:

In closing her remarks, the Provost Marshal noted that, in contrast to the relatively low casualty levels due to Triglavian assaults against orbital bodies, the combined number of dead and severely wounded due to Triglavian attacks in space is running into several millions, with CONCORD and core empire naval personnel suffering the bulk of those casualties.

[Melisma_Ramijozana]

You’ve quoted from an article that actually says this:

AEGIS Estimates Fatalities from Triglavian Planetary and Station Raiding at “Several Hundred Thousands”

Yulai, Genesis — AEGIS Provost Marshal Kasiha Valkanir released estimates of fatal casualties running into “several hundred thousands” due to Triglavian raiding of planets, stations and other orbital bodies, at a press conference held this morning at DED Headquarters in Yulai. Collated in the course of AEGIS operations supporting, and in some cases providing, defense of stations and orbital bodies, the figures reflect the relatively successful outcomes of most orbital defensive efforts.

Questioned on the remarkably low fatality figures, Provost Marshal Valkanir conceded that “Triglavian assaults on static targets are typically aimed at specific objectives and not at inflicting high levels of casualties.” Provost Valkanir went on to say, “The best assessment of AEGIS, and indeed the DED as a whole, is that Triglavian operations on planets, moons, stations, and other orbitals, are primarily focused on intelligence-gathering efforts. This does include some degree of seizing property and personnel, presumably for analysis and, in the latter case, interrogation.” The Provost Marshal also confirmed that Triglavian forces attacking orbitals have included so-called “rogue drones” apparently operating under their command.

In closing her remarks, the Provost Marshal noted that, in contrast to the relatively low casualty levels due to Triglavian assaults against orbital bodies, the combined number of dead and severely wounded due to Triglavian attacks in space is running into several millions, with CONCORD and core empire naval personnel suffering the bulk of those casualties.

If you were making the claim that Triglavian attacks are less often against baseliners, then you’d be correct. Unfortunately, the claim you’re trying to support is:

@Ange_des_Larmes

The Triglavians are not attacking civilians

The fact that there are any civilian/baseliner fatalities at all, even if they’re fewer than those in space, automatically makes this assertion incorrect.

I’ll be on my way now.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

I am being attacked on the semantics of syntax now? My, my argument has truly rattled the old guard that they now refuse to use facts and evidence!

Are they attacking civilians? Yes. Is their intent to attack civilians? No. They wish to get information from civilians.

I was clearly focused on the intent of the Triglavian attacks. Civilians are getting killed, yes. Are non-capsuleers - may I say I find the term “baseliner” crass and insulting to fellow humans - explicitly being attacked or are they collateral damage from attacks on CONCORD?

The evidence would suggest the latter.

[Diana_Kim]

@Ange_des_Larmes

Once again, in their own words:

In closing her remarks, the Provost Marshal noted that, in contrast to the relatively low casualty levels due to Triglavian assaults against orbital bodies, the combined number of dead and severely wounded due to Triglavian attacks in space is running into several millions, with CONCORD and core empire naval personnel suffering the bulk of those casualties .

That they suffer more losses doesn’t mean Triglavians center their aggression on them. It could mean that CONCORD and Empires fight them - and are less successful than capsuleers. I am actually glad that we are attacking them, since at first I was worried that our Empires were avoiding direct confrontation with Triglavians.

Now, the argument remains, technically, the same: they do attack capsuleers.

I am just expecting way lesser losses among the capsule pilots and their crews.

And there could be even one more addition to that: if you disband CONCORD - that would only increase tension and casualties among core empire naval personnel.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Ange_des_Larmes

The Triglavians are not attacking civilians - they are gathering information. They are attacking CONCORD. They are attacking capsuleers. But CONCORD are suffering the casualties?

… not attacking civilians? You are aware that they have boarded stations and attempted planetary invasions? I mean, the very quote you just provided explicitly says that. They have abducted people. Casualties of civilians are currently low (in the hundreds of thousands - low for the amount of targets they have hit) precisely because of the defense provided by CONCORD, the national navies, and independent capsuleers. The bulk of casualties being on the part of CONCORD and empire naval personnel is because they are actively giving their lives in the protection of planetary and station civilian populations.

You should read that article you quoted again, because you clearly didn’t the first time.

Really, this is just the usual capsuleer entitlement. A bunch of self-important, egotistical capsuleers without an shred of moral fiber in their body, heep continued insult on CONCORD because they think CONCORD doesn’t share enough information with them, or is too hard on them. Boohoo. It isn’t. It should be far harder on capsuleers than it is. Criminals like you should be destroyed the moment you enter a civilized system, and your clones confiscated and shut down. CONCORD’s biggest problem, the thing they actually are guilty of, is not doing enough to protect people from capsuleer monsters. It is in that sense that they are not doing enough.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

@Samira_Kernher

CONCORD’s biggest problem, the thing they actually are guilty of, is not doing enough to protect people from capsuleer monsters. It is in that sense that they are not doing enough.

This is precisely what I and the New Order have been saying for a very long time. I’m glad you have come around to our view.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Ange_des_Larmes

This is precisely what I and the New Order have been saying for a very long time. I’m glad you have come around to our view.

You’re part of the problem.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

I agree. We are all part of the problem! Capsuleers have been enabling CONCORD’s corruption for far too long! And this is why I and many others are making a stand now.

I’m so glad we see eye-to-eye on this subject.

[Samira_Kernher]

@Ange_des_Larmes

And this is why I and many others are making a stand now.

You’re not making a stand. You’re running a protection racket.

[Ange_des_Larmes]

I did not know that a protest was a protection racket! Perhaps you should re-watch my recent holoreel, Samira, before you use your own prejudices to inform your beliefs?

[Samira_Kernher]

@Ange_des_Larmes

Perhaps you should re-watch my recent holoreel, Samira

That is presuming I’ve already watched it once already.

[Diana_Kim]

@Ange_des_Larmes

I did not know that a protest was a protection racket! Perhaps you should re-watch my recent holoreel, Samira, before you use your own prejudices to inform your beliefs?

If you want people to watch or even re-watch your recent holoreel, maybe you should re-evaluate the pricing policy?
Just saying