I’m not sure that this is true or necessarily accurate at all. As I’ve previously stated and linked to, reading PDF files is possible for most people with nothing to download and even if they do need to download Acrobat, it’s very, very simple, and I suspect something, given the complexity of EVE, that would not befuddle most people in the player base.
I think this is a desirable option and as I’ve already said, several times I think in fact, it is something that I will look at doing with the final version. However, I will definitely also be offering people the option of a high-resolution PDF, both in an interactive version and one suitable for high-quality poster printout.
I’m really not sure whether this is trolling or a lack of awareness of how image files work. The reason that it doesn’t work for the new one at this stage is simply because the example file that you are linking to for the new chart is a lower-resolution test file.
I doubt that the file could be uploaded in such a way that it would be possible to be, "readable just from the basic browser. without zooming in, but, assuming that the online version is uploaded at a suitable resolution, then I cannot see that there will be a problem.
I think that’s a really good idea, and it is something that I’ve played around with introducing. (one of the other ideas that was to have an indicator to signify what degree of fleet you might need for any activity, e.g. solo, small group, big group).
Having said this, at this stage, I think I’m going to rain-check this and add it to a list of possible future modifications. This is partially because, after two years of work, I’m quite keen to get a final first version out and also because this kind of modification would, potentially, affect every single card on the chart, which is a fairly massive change.
I do genuinely, however, appreciate the useful feedback, and it will be very seriously considered at some point in the future.
Thanks for taking the time to offer positive feedback, I genuinely appreciate it.
I think there almost certainly will be with the final version.
I’ve already had a tentative conversation with an EVE Uni Wiki admin and they were quite interested in hosting the chart on their site once it’s finished. I may also mirror it elsewhere just to build in some extra redundancy.
And this is the exact problem. The REAL problem is that you don’t even realize it.
Quite frankly I’m getting tired of this nonsense, you’ve been at this for almost 3 fcking YEARS to produce something that already existed you could just copy/paste, add some new options to perhaps with a bit of retouching.
When we needed a new one you stepped up (this is good) so others went “it’ll be taken care of so we don’t have to do it” so they didn’t bother. Yes I realize it’s going to take time but then you started talking about “inclusivity” and “ethically sourced URLs” and other nonsense, making it accessible to people who are colour blind is good but that doesn’t add MONTHS of effort.
This is not a vanity project, it’s not something to mull or philosophize over for one’s own amusement. This is to help newbies make choices so they can find their own niche and enjoy the game. It needs to achieve ONE THING: show newbies the play style options that exist in the game and it doesn’t DO that because it’s unfckingreadable, can’t be easily opened from within the game and you infested it with morality and activism.
Newbies are STILL waiting, 3+ years now, to get accurate information. Stop feeling special about yourself and just deliver on what you promised. Make it so it can be linked in rookie channel as a PNG or JPG and actually be readable!
It’s kinda depressing trying to help someone who has such blinders, that they think we are “griefing” when we are just offering constructive criticism to help.
I totally agree and, for what it’s worth, this is something that I’ve tried to do when writing additional text for inclusion on the revised chart.
No disrespect intended, but had you looked at the original chart, you would’ve seen that these are the words that feature on the card there for this activity. I haven’t changed the text at all.
I think you make a fair point, but I would say that ‘War Dec’ is a recognised term within EVE. I also think that ‘Sanctioned Corporate Warfare’ might be just a bit verbose. Either way, I will think about changing the text on this particular activity card on the final version of the chart.
I am slightly bemused by the seemingly instantaneously passionate way that people in EVE who like to blow other people up are suddenly annoyed when their activities are described as ‘griefing’. I’m not sure whether this includes you but it is what it is.
According to Wikipedia, (and indeed to Evelopedia): “Some space simulators, like Eve Online, have incorporated activities typically considered griefing as part of the gameplay mechanism. Corporate spying, theft, scams, gate-camping, and PvP on non-PvP players are all part of their gaming experience.”
As such, I think griefing is a part of EVE, possibly and arguably a core part, so I feel pretty okay about the use of the verb within the chart.
Importantly, at least from my perspective, it features here not as either a pejorative or laudative term, but simply because it is a term that most people who play games would understand in the context of how it is being used and the type of activity that it is indicative of.
When new players start the game (this chart is aimed at new players, right?), they don’t know all of the proprietary terminology that established players use to describe EVE’s unique meta. “Wardec” to them is the same as “parsing” to a level 12 WoW player or “double-weaving” to someone on their second day of FFXIV. But the neutral terminology I used to describe high-sec wars will be understood by pretty much anyone with an IQ over 70, even if they’ve never played an MMO before.
Okay, it’s great that you’re bemused, but is it wrong? As I noted before, a new player’s behavior is likely to be steered by such descriptors (as I’ll get to in the next quote). A new player who might otherwise be interested in high-sec war gameplay can (and likely would) be turned off by the terminology you’re using.
It would be the same as if you labeled high-sec mining as “carebearing.” It would be no less accurate than describing high-sec wars as griefing, yet would be objectively wrong in its technical description of the activity.
These new players are likely used to understanding the term “griefing” in the context of the other games they play, where the act of “griefing” is not only frowned upon, but usually expressly forbidden. And now they see your chart, and think “hey, I don’t want to get in trouble, better find something else to do.”
Labeling sanctioned forms of PvP gameplay as “griefing” just because some articles assign the term to normal EVE activities in a very proprietary manner (the platforms of said articles being heavily co-opted by people with a specific agenda, by the way) is misguided at best, and possibly even intellectually dishonest.
He seems to think it’s ok to misrepresent things as “griefing”, because he doesn’t like them, but to refer to something as “carebearing” is just unacceptable. One might conclude he is a carebear! Regardless, it’s hypocritical. As for why it might be inappropriate to refer to these legitimate activities as “griefing”…not only is it misleading, but it also incorrectly implies those activities violate the EULA.
It’s a sad commentary on modern life, that he cites Wikipedia as if it is an authoritative source. Perhaps he added that word to the article himself, just to ‘prove’ his point. Regardless, anyone who cites Wikipedia has undermined their own credibility.
I think the lesson here is that CCP should make their own official chart.
I can’t read the text boxes, because he refuses to release a legible version, but this is pretty bad if that is the description of wardecs. Just another example of bias, and a reminder that you should understand the game, before you start ‘helping’ new players.
I don’t think CCP is going to make their own official anything aside from newsletters about new store packages. And even those are probably going to start using AI-generated art by this summer.
Is it appropriate for you to use the chart, supposedly intended to help new players, as a way to troll people who engage in activities you dislike? Certainly you can do whatever you want, but I think objectively one might question your motives here.
While that is my personal POV I wouldn’t even THINK of putting that on a guide I’d make because I realize that guide is not about me or how I can get brownie points with the other narc… people. I’d realize, and do when helping newbies, that all play styles are valid as long as they are within the game’s rules and one enjoys doing them. If I help someone one on one, which happens very often, I remain neutral about play styles unless asked for an opinion.
I joined this forum in June 2017, some six years ago. In all that time there have only been two people whom I’ve ever felt the need to block - life is way too short to allow toxicity into your life IMHO.
I kinda knew that when the chart got the Community Pulse plug, it was likely to bring some trolls out from under their rocks and to re-energise them to misbehave. Some five days later they are now attempting to seriously disrupt this thread by making multiple posts to twist things and to even to try to damage my reputation and credibility with CCP.
It’s really sad that in the face of a positive thing - eg: the chart - some people’s first response is to attempt to kick things over, but I guess that’s life. There is good and bad wherever you go and this includes EVE. I take my inspiration from people like @Mike_Azariah and @Chribba, whilst others search for their EVE heroes elsewhere and sometimes within cults that are almost quasi-religious at times.
Just to be clear, and this is the only post that I’ll write on this, I’m not going to respond to trollish posts here, however many you post. Please don’t waste your time and energy continually writing acerbic prose because it really will not get a response.
No what you’re doing is spending THREE YEARS to make a chart to help newbies and when it’s done it fails to do its basic use: actually be readable and usable from within the game. It’s like a government project: too late, over budget, completely useless with features no one asked for.
YES I’m angry about that, not for myself but for new players who could (and should) have had proper info YEARS ago to help them get into the game, but don’t because we were waiting for someone who promised to deliver. I would hope that more people would be angry about that. I’m not interested in someone doing the self pity and victimhood (which is so prevalent amongst certain people) at the expense of others/newbies.
And do you listen when we tell you? No, you don’t because in your mind you’re virtuous, you can’t be wrong, it’s all about you. Make it work so newbies can actually USE IT or stop wasting people’s time and wasting newbie’s (and the game’s) potential.
I downloaded the file from Google Drive and opened it on Gimp. It’s perfectly readable at the right zoom.
Funny thing is, it’s supposedly “unreadable” but readable enough for the points to be argued about how you supposedly are being baised against certain playstyles… Something doesn’t add up - dare I say it - to me.
Also, you are right to include the word “griefing” on the chart. New Players need to know that they will feel grief sometimes and that they can also inflict grief onto others, that’s the reality of PvP: one wins another cries and is generated all that salt we hear so much about. That salt isn’t free, it comes from players’ tears.
Tears = grief in my world.
Chart looks great @Mu_ad_Diib Don’t get sidetracked by people who can’t be happy.
TLDR:Most modern computers (Windows and Macs) have built-in PDF readers that are basic … phones and tablets usually have PDF readers pre-installed … All Windows computers have a browser that can act as a PDF reader, like Microsoft Edge or Chrome, so you don’t have to download anything if you don’t want to do more than read or view the PDF … All Macs come with Preview, a tool that opens a wide variety of files, including PDF files …
If you’re so tired of it, then just ignore this thread instead of constantly trying to derail it.
More importantly, if you think it’s so easy to make a copy of the original graph and add a little bit more info to it, then just do it already and stop trolling this thread…
@Mu_ad_Diib My apology for adding to the derailment of this thread, best way to respond is with flag…
